From: (RIsaacs@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 19:40:18 -0500
To: Nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Nephilim FAQ
Liam's got my vote.
I think the Ka vision rules need to be clarified. You need to be in
Ka-vision for an hour to inscribe a spell, yet you have to make a Ka-vision
roll every ten minutes. That's six rolls at Kax3% (I believe).
Also, what exactly do you see in Ka-vision? Is it like infravision? Can you
read the auras of others? Can you see the Ka-elements of things - like
walls? Do Ka-elements drift like big blobs through the center of a room?
Alice Bailey gives a good description of the elemental fields in one of her
books - either The Destiny of Nations or Initiation Human and Solar. I found
the descriptions of what the fields actually look like to be unclear.
Ross A. Isaacs
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From: (Chaosium@aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:03:27 -0500
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Nephilim Digest V1 #3
Ross Isaacs writes:
>I think the Ka vision rules need to be clarified. You need to be in
>Ka-vision for an hour to inscribe a spell, yet you have to make a Ka-vision
>roll every ten minutes. That's six rolls at Kax3% (I believe).
Yes Ross, that is an error. I put the time limit on Ka vision as a result of
introducing Ch'awe, but didn't notice how that affected spell inscription.
I'd say that you only have to make one Ka vision roll to inscribe a
spell, but it still takes an hour to complete. -- This should go in
the errata, Liam.
About your other questions concerning Ka-vision, there are descriptive
passages about what the elemental fields look like on pages 126, and 129-130,
as well as what Ka in a person or magical creature looks like on pages
128-129. Your question about reading the auras of others could be expanded
beyond the simple elemental descriptions to a system of psychic reading, but
that seems to appraoch the area of magical workings.
Laurent writes:
>Templars are violent, they are historically fighters, warriors in
>the tradition of Tubalcaan. The physically hunt the Nephilim, that
>is true. Why? To me, because they fear the Nephilim, they don't
>really understand what they are, but they know they exist. The
>templars are Fire.
I agree there. Fear is one of the most powerful motivators of the Secret
societies. They destroy what they do not understand and cannot control.
We didn't carry over the heirarchical minor arcana structure from the French
version to the English (it was a system in which each of the secret societies
was catagorized and ranked), because we could not see the continually
changing, secretive and bickering societies fittinging into, or much less
agreeing to, a rigid, formal hierachy under the dominon of the Templars.
We've made the Templar's controll much less rigid and formalized, and more
organic. For the most part the groups still have the same motivations as in
the French version, so Laurent's discussion is still on point.
Far from taboo, speculating on conspiracies concerning JFK's assassination is
akin to a national sport here. A shame, really, since it discredits
conspiracies and provides great cover for the real assassination
conspirators. Hmmm... Maybe we have something here -- the JFK assassination
conspirators are behind the profligation of conspiracy theories, essentially
pointing the finger at so many other people that nobody notices a extra
finger or two pointing at them!
Sam Shirley
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Ka-Vision
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:39:39 +1100 (EST)
From: "Steven Crabb"
Ross Isaacs says,
> Also, what exactly do you see in Ka-vision? Is it like infravision? Can you
> read the auras of others? Can you see the Ka-elements of things - like
> walls? Do Ka-elements drift like big blobs through the center of a room?
Well here's my handy summary sheet, from the pages of the rules noted by
Sam.
Rgds
Steve
----
KA-VISION SUMMARY
Ka x3 roll every 10 minutes to remain in Ka-Vision. Failure means waiting at
least 10 minutes before trying again. Longer than 1 hour in Ka-Vision - Khaiba
roll every 10 minutes. Cost is 1 Ch'awe per 10 minutes.
Range: dominant-Ka x5 meters. Items past that are seen dimly, unless they're
particularly powerful. See through solid material as though it were a hazy
screen.
Astrological Modifier: Current modifier can be determined by examining the
intensity of each colour.
Ka-Language: Any Nephilim in range will perceive the message. Ka x3 to
understand.
COLOURS OF KA-VISION
Alchemical formulae: hue of the element being used.
Earth: scintillating, rainbow-coloured heart, with elemental fields streaming
up to the surface.
Elemental Fields: light washes of colour that ebb and flow in constant visual
harmony like musical vibrations. Each field looks like:
Fire - mostly red, also orange, yellow, white, blue.
- ever changing, fast moving, thin, often surrounded by small flames
- volcanic areas, heavy storms,natural/accidental fires, sources of heat
Air - pure white to rainy-sky grey, pure-sky blue
- regular, slow and very thin, numerous. Sometimes torn in many places.
- everywhere, concentrate on high peaks, strong winds or storms
Water - blue to green
- mobile, conforming for a moment to the shape of their surroundings,
changing, endless wirls, cross-currents. Soft curves, finely
chiselled
- everywhere water is, deep ocean bottoms
Earth - shades of brown and green
- still and static, cubic, cutting edges, long flat surfaces, thick
- great mountains, stone deserts, forests, fertile plains
Moon - silvery, with perhaps a light, golden luminosity
- mad, surrealistic, confusing, sadness
- Black Moon: during some lunar enthronements it can be seen as blacker
than black.
Sun - intense glowing spots, more visible than any other field.
Humans: Flame or beam of light with intensity relative to Solar-Ka
Dull humans: pale yellow candle flames
Intense/sharp humans: bright flames of constant clear yellow
'Superhuman' humans: gold, longer upward and downward
Lesser Creatures: Similiar, but rarely more than a dull flicker.
Litharge: undetectable
Nexus: whirling tornadoes of raw energy spinning, crashing and colliding in
fountains of colour.
Orichalka: unnatural, nauseating void. No colour - a hole in the elemental
fields. Distresses Nephilim. Attracted by metals, stays compact in matter.
Planets: luminescent dots in the night sky with relevant colour.
Plexus: torrents of elemental energy washing the land with swirling colours.
Selenim: Difficult to see, pitch black, darker than midnight. When feeding on
Solar-Ka; flickering golden highlights in a smoky-black field.
Simulacrum: Pelvic bones - Earth - green
Stomach (blood) - Water - dark blue-green
Heart - Fire - red
Throat - Air - sky-blue
Groin - Moon - silvery
Head - Sun - golden or yellow sphere
Spells: coherent flow of Ka-element energies (relevant colour) passing through
and around the caster and target. Use Kabbalistic Lore for clues to what a
spell is doing. If already familiar with the spell roll relevant Technique.
Stasis: can detect, but unable to determine contents.
Summoned Creatures: one colour or many depending on type.
Sun: burning golden inferno
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:24:46 +0800
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Untangling the mess
>You seem to be talking about two different things here, David. You
>are talking about a Nephilim and Xian-ren looking a physical thing -
> a stream. If a Xian- ren looks at a stream, it will definitely see
>water-chi. But to the Xian-ren, the water element is influenced by a
>different planet.
I would prefer to leave the astronomy questions till a little later.
>Now, you bring up an interesting question. If there is a water
>plexus, what would the Xian-ren see? Would it see it as a Water
>Plexus, or a Metal Plexus. I don't have the answer to that question
>just yet.
>
>Consequently, when a Nephilim looks at a Metal Plexus, it won't
>initially know what it is looking at. It will know it is looking at
>some kind of Ka-element, but it will have little experience with it.
>A Xian-ren would need to explain it to the Nephilim. By the same
>token, a Xian-ren wouldn't recognize Moon-Ka, because they don't have
>any experience with it.
OK, here is a brave try at a resolution metaphor. This is just the
best I have been able to come up with as a resolution to the problem, try
it and see.
First, Ch'i and Ka are two different names for exactly the same
thing. This is very important from my point of view.
Next, the type of Ka or Ch'i is like a colour. When you look at
different things with Ka-Vision (or Ch'i vision) you see different colours.
In some sense what colour you see is universal - we all know what rainbows
look like. In other senses what you see is highly cultural - we say the
rainbow has 7 colours, other cultures say it has more or less colours, and
they have different names for the colours.
Different cultural systems for classifying Ka/Ch'i can vary quite a
bit - as can systems for colour. Even systems for classifying colour that
are based on solid objective criteria - like RGB and CMYK - can vary
immensely, and often things that can be described by one system cannot be
described precisely by another.
OK - so now the Nephilim (generic term) start to develop magic.
They discover that particular spells work best when the Ch'i/Ka powering
them is of a particular colour. They begin to find ways to enhance
particular colours within their own Ka/Ch'i, and they begin collecting
information about the flow of what they consider the most important colours
of Ch'i within the landscape.
The different cultures, however, do not necessarily consider the
same sets of colours to be important, and they develop magic involved with
different colours, though not completely different. Colours that are
important to one culture may not be important to another.
So, when a European Nephilim sees a Metal Plexus, they basically
looks at it and say 'damn, all mauve, really not very useful - if only it
was blue', because that shade is not one that they know how to manipulate
magically. When a Xian-ren sees a Water Ka Plexus, he sees blue, and says
'excellent, Water Ch'i', and dives in. Both of them see the equivalent of
White when they look at a Nexus.
So some Xian-ren will look notably different to a Nephilim, because
their Ka is odd colours that he hasn't seen. He understands that Nephilim
can develop their Ka to be that colour, he just doesn't understand why you
would want to because there is no good magic for that colour. But there are
also some Xian-ren that are mostly made up of familiar colours, and that he
may not recognise as unusual immediately.
Now if you can work the different astrological modifiers into it,
its up to you. I can't see how to do it, but I am also not that convinced
that it really needs to change. The rest of it makes so much sense under
this idea that I am more than willing to sacrifice cross-cultural astrology
for it. Also, as far as I am concerned, when Nephilim look up into the sky,
they see the same thing - which may imply some cross cultural astrology,
even if only the Ka-Vision capable Nephilim can see it.
>As for all that cross-cultural paradigm stuff - Sam will have to
>answer that one.
I think most of that makes its way into the game in the form of
magic systems and pathways to Agartha. The magic system will certainly
change, if Sam wants to make other changes to the pathway to Agartha, thats
his decision, but I don't really think its necessary.
Cheers
David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 12:03:22 +0800
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Elemental equivalencies
>I'm still of the opinion that there is no direct equivalency east to west (or
>the other way as well). Western Nephilim have the five elements listed in the
>game. Eastern ones have their five. For example, Western Nephilim can't use
>Metal Chi, and at best might see an element they don't recognize, at worst
>are totally unaware of it because it is culturally a color for which they
>have no concept. Was it the feudal Japanese who didn't recognize blue as a
>seperate color? (I think it was them). To them, it was all green.
Continuing with the colour analogy, bear in mind that such
cultural distinctions as this are actually pretty easy to overcome. The
Japanese might not have considered blue and green as separate colours, but
they could tell the difference between the two, and probably learn which
was which very easily. Not naming a particular colour is not at all the
same thing as not seeing it (unless you are one of those Sapir-Whorf uber
alles types from the post-modernist radical fringe). We can distinguish
many more shades of colour visually than we can verbally. This is how I
consider Ka-vision working, which just seems to be a lot more natural,
being as they're both visual.
Now, Sam may be implying that he thinks being able to see a
Ka-element is more like being able to recognise a phoneme, which is a case
in which your 'senses' are directly effected by a cultural bias.
>For Nephilim, it's a matter of perception. If they are not "made" of that
>element, then they have no influence over it, either actively or passively.
>The elements represent a system of understanding, and for Nephilim, what they
>understand is what they are, and what they can influence.
All very well in theory, but a right pain for the purposes of the
game. Are you implying that all Western Nephilim are completely immune to
Metal Ch'i magic?
If you are, allow me to argue against it. For a start, it means
both elemental traditions are WRONG. A Nephilim thinks all things are made
of the same 5 elements, a Xian-ren thinks all things are made of the same
5, but they are both wrong, as there exist Nephilim who are missing certain
parts of their being.
>Think of the complexity of having to note your Nephilim's elemental makeup in
>a bunch of different cosmologies all for the purpose of passive activities.
>Sounds like a bookeeping pain on the butt.
This was not what I was implying. I was thinking more of the GM
having a little chart that said "moon Ka = 60% Water Ch'i" or whatever,
that he can refer to whenever he has a Nephilim from one tradition cast
magic on another. All you need is for every tradition to have conversions
to and from the standard rulesbook set.
>Also, if a Nephilim is allowed to
>choose its dominant element in the other cosmology (my current thinking) when
>it "redifracts" itself in a nexus and other elements are figured as
>percentages of the dominant, then how are you going to choose the Nephilim's
>elemental makeup in another system when the Nephilim has never actually gone
>through the redifraction and chosen its dominant element in that system?
Exactly. That is the purpose that I see us needing rules for.
>Also, to what physical elements would a quadrant system (east, west, north,
>south) map?
That is a question for Ross, in this case. Certainly the feng-shui
people know what corresponds to what.
>I think trying to map elements directly will be a great deal more
>hassle than it's worth. And in many instances, such a direct mapping is a
>disservice to the belief systems involved, in that the elements don't fully
>equate in a direct way. Even the supposedly "same" elements in differing
>systems have significantly different shades of meaning, but we may be able to
>gloss over that for simplicity's sake.
The supposedly "same" elements have significantly differing shades
of meaning when you look at different sources within the same occult
tradition, quite often. And yes, we can gloss over it for simplicities
sake, and we should.
I think trying to map them directly is worth looking at, and it
just may not work out (probably not, in the case of the Chinese tradition).
If it doesn't then a few simple rules should be relatively easy to come up
with.
>Liam Wrote:
>>>It seems to me (and I have no particular reason for knowing) that those
>from different belief structures might have an extremely hard time using
>the same magics. It seems to me that more than the sorts of energy they
>can see and manipulate, the conceptual frameworks they have built upon
>would prevent them from making use of the paradigms that support another
>spiritual/magical system. So while I might allow Nephilim and Xian-ren to
>see each other's magical fields, to some extent or other, I'd be very
>cagey about allowing them to use one another's magical patterns. If
>anything should be different, due to different cultures, such fomulae
>should simply not function for someone outside the belief structure.
(Sigh). To me, actually learning the pretty large amounts of the
appropriate skill, and the complex rituals required to become an active
practitioner of most magical skills, etc. represents a pretty strong
commitment to learning about the culture.
Cultural belief patterns are NOT INNATE. A Xian-ren that learns
fluent english, and spends several months reading European occult texts and
building up his knowledge of European occultism (Hermetic Lore, etc.) in
order to understand the books, has taken on part of that cultural belief
system. To me, this seems pretty obvious. I agree that a Nephilim cannot
simply say to a Xian-ren 'hey, try this nifty spell, it's a Fire spell,
should work for you'. But that is probably because the Xian-ren has no
knowledge of sorcery, rather than because the Xian-ren is incapable of
understanding sorcery.
Since getting away from the game rules into the real world religion
behind seems to be the way things go, I'll put it in those terms. We
certainly have a lot of people, brought up in a European society, who are
practicing followers of Zen or Taoism. To me, you are saying that there are
deeper secrets in those religions that you cannot absorb simply by learning
about it.
Cheers
David
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mikey@ayup.res.wpi.edu (Michael V. Caprio Jr.)
Subject: Re: Elemental equivalencies
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 10:29:40 -0500 (EST)
> Continuing with the colour analogy, bear in mind that such
> cultural distinctions as this are actually pretty easy to overcome. The
> Japanese might not have considered blue and green as separate colours, but
> they could tell the difference between the two, and probably learn which
> was which very easily. Not naming a particular colour is not at all the
> same thing as not seeing it (unless you are one of those Sapir-Whorf uber
> alles types from the post-modernist radical fringe). We can distinguish
> many more shades of colour visually than we can verbally. This is how I
> consider Ka-vision working, which just seems to be a lot more natural,
> being as they're both visual.
> Now Sam may be implying that he thinks being able to see a
> Ka-element is more like being able to recognise a phoneme, which is a case
> in which your 'senses' are directly affected by a cultural bias.
Actually, this paragraph turns me into almost another
direction entirely from the "rainbow-color" analogy. Your arguments
above make it seem much more appropriate now to approach the cultural
differences from a _language_ difference rather than a ka-color
difference.
It makes a lot of sense in this respect - ka-vision is the
same as an unspoken language of the western Nephilim... Enochian,
right? And the written translation of Enochian doesn't quite work
out. Well... let's say that at the time of Babel (the _real_ one, not
the one humans wrote about in the Bible... :) ), Nephilim split into
their various counterparts because their languages changed, and they
went their separate ways (Xian-Ren east, Nephilim west, etc.). There
were arguments about what was the right way to speak, ("Wood!" "No,
Air!") and so on.
This way, cultural difference is _implicit_. You think in
your native language - and the way you think is affected by what
language you use. And, _something is always lost in the translation
from one language to another_. So a Nephilim can try to cast a
Martial Arts spell, but it won't come out just right because he
doesn't _really_ understand the right words to "say" or inscribe.
I think this analogy goes a much longer way than simple differences
between colors...
> (Sigh). To me, actually learning the pretty large amounts of the
> appropriate skill, and the complex rituals required to become an active
> practitioner of most magical skills, etc. represents a pretty strong
> commitment to learning about the culture.
> Cultural belief patterns are NOT INNATE. A Xian-ren that learns
> fluent english, and spends several months reading European occult texts and
> building up his knowledge of European occultism (Hermetic Lore, etc.) in
> order to uderstand the books, has taken on part of that cultural belief
> system. To me, this seems pretty obvious. I agree that a Nephilim cannot
> simply say to a Xian-ren 'hey, try this nifty spell, its a Fire spell,
> should work for you'. But that is probably because the Xian-ren has no
> knowledge of sorcery, rather than because the Xian-ren is incapable of
> understanding sorcery.
If we get into the analogy I've set up above, we can easily
say that, yes, a Nephilim can learn to speak Xian-Ren language
(whatever the equivalent of Enochian is in Eastern culture), but since
he doesn't really translate exactly, he can't get the same effects.
And, on some level, the Xian-Ren really _can't_ understanf all the
concepts the Nephilim is trying to teach him because there may be no
language equivalent for what he's "saying" to him.
It also fits in that both sides can learn a little bit of the
other's lower magic in their respective sorceries (since they both
existed at the time of Babel), but that the later developed magics are
nearly impossible to learn since languages can change greatly over
time - the language used in those disciplines is just about impossible
for outsiders to comprehend.
> Since getting away from the game rules into the real world religion
> behind seems to be the way things go, I'll put it in those terms. We
> certainly have a lot of people, brought up in a European society, who are
> practicing followers of Zen or Taoism. To me, you are saying that there are
> deeper secrets in those religions that you cannot absorb simply by learning
> about it.
It's better to say "You won't understand all the subtleties of
chinese or french poetry unless you are chinese or french." This is
an obvious statement to make considering the above analogy - you
really won't get it unless you can _think_ in the other language, and
that comes through years of study in the language - and that's for
human languages! Imagine how difficult it must be to understand a
language like Enochian, which can't really be translated to a written
form, and is only accessible through ka-vision.
Or you could say it sounds more like, "there are deeper
secrets you cannot learn unless you are Nephilim," which in game
structure is pretty much true. You _can't_ practice magic unless you
have access to ka. You might know about a secret, if you're a
Templar, but you don't _really_ know what it's like to be a part of
the magic fields.
I'm not sure how all this will resolve with the color scheme,
but I really have to say that this all fits in well with the cutural
stuff and the magic stuff.
Mike
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:48:21 +0800
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Elemental equivalencies
[my bit in reply to Sams bit about Samurai not distinguishing between blue
and green deleted]
> Actually, this paragraph turns me into almost another
>direction entirely from the "rainbow-color" analogy. Your arguments
>above make it seem much more appropriate now to approach the cultural
>differences from a _language_ difference rather than a ka-color
>difference.
Ahhhh! (runs around screaming in terror a bit) Just as we finally
had some sort of agreement.
> It makes a lot of sense in this respect - ka-vision is the
>same as an unspoken language of the western Nephilim... Enochian,
>right? And the written translation of Enochian doesn't quite work
>out. Well... let's say that at the time of Babel (the _real_ one, not
>the one humans wrote about in the Bible... :) ), Nephilim split into
>their various counterparts because their languages changed, and they
>went their separate ways (Xian-Ren east, Nephilim west, etc.). There
>were arguments about what was the right way to speak, ("Wood!" "No,
>Air!") and so on.
I don't think that Enochian is just another language. I also think
that while Ka-Vision is related, it is not the same thing. I am not even
sure that Enochian can be misunderstood in this way (though written
translations of it certainly can be, because they are mere human languages,
not the divine language of the Nephilim).
In other words, No. I do not think that there are different
dialects of Enochian that are sufficiently different so as to make
insolvable differences of mindset.
> This way, cultural difference is _implicit_. You think in
>your native language - and the way you think is affected by what
>language you use. And, _something is always lost in the translation
>from one language to another_. So a Nephilim can try to cast a
>Martial Arts spell, but it won't come out just right because he
>doesn't _really_ understand the right words to "say" or inscribe.
>I think this analogy goes a much longer way than simple differences
>between colors...
The colour analogy (which is largely linguistic anyway) is only
designed to show how Nephilim can have different ideas about Ka/Ch'i even
though they see the same thing. I quite happily admit that learned
knowledges, such as Sorcery or Feng-shui, are heavily culturally
determined.
Now if you are going to say that they see in different languages,
that is a pretty damn strange idea.
> If we get into the analogy I've set up above, we can easily
>say that, yes, a Nephilim can learn to speak Xian-Ren language
>(whatever the equivalent of Enochian is in Eastern culture), but since
>he doesn't really translate exactly, he can't get the same effects.
OK, you are one of those Sapir-Whorf uber alles from the post
modernist fringe that I talked about!
The counter argument to this is simply that it is all a matter of
degree not an absolute. Simply put, there must come a point where an
outsider from a culture knows so much about it (assuming the implicit
knowledge that comes from fluent speaking) that the lacking in his
understanding is likely to also apply between many members of that culture.
I respect culture, I realise it is a powerful and pervasive
influence on you thought, but I am not a cultural determinist. Just because
a concept is from another culture, does not mean that it cannot be
eventually understood, though it may be that you need to understand a lot
about it, and on an implicit level, before you really understand.
> It also fits in that both sides can learn a little bit of the
>other's lower magic in their respective sorceries (since they both
>existed at the time of Babel), but that the later developed magics are
>nearly impossible to learn since languages can change greatly over
>time - the language used in those disciplines is just about impossible
>for outsiders to comprehend.
What, even outsiders willing to spend probably several lifetimes of
intense study in learning a magical art to Grand Secret level, probably
studying the culutre of origin by necessity as they go? I don't think so.
Of course it is hard to learn the Grand Secrets of another culture,
but its bloody hard to learn those of your own as well.
Can't we just let this issue slide, because it is so unlikely to
arise in a game situation anyway?
For the record, I think that if a Western Nephilim has spent the
last two centuries in Tibet studying Yoga, he probably knows as much about
that culture as any native by now.
Cheers
Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mikey@ayup.res.wpi.edu (Michael V. Caprio Jr.)
Subject: Re: Elemental equivalencies
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:20:03 -0500 (EST)
[screaming deleted]
[Babel analogy deleted]
> I don't think that Enochian is just another language. I also think
> that while Ka-Vision is related, it is not the same thing. I am not even
> sure that Enochian can be misunderstood in this way (though written
> translations of it certainly can be, because they are mere human languages,
> not the divine language of the Nephilim).
> In other words, No. I do not think that there are different
> dialects of Enochian that are sufficiently different so as to make
> insolvable differences of mindset.
I guess it depends on how you envision what Enochian is. The rules
don't explicity say anything about it, just that Nephilim can use
ka-vision to communicate as well as "see" magic. Calling it a divine
language seems right - it's an "ideal" language, to use Plato's
example. The most recent issue of The Invisibles (DC Comics, Vertigo
Press - I heartily recommend it to Nephilim players and GMs - it's
full of conspirators and supernatural creatures and Templars and the
Invisible College, etc.) has the head of John the Baptist speaking in
a glossolalia language - the words are interpreted differently
depending on who listens to them, but the tongue is the same.
> The colour analogy (which is largely linguistic anyway) is only
> designed to show how Nephilim can have different ideas about Ka/Ch'i even
> though they see the same thing. I quite happily admit that learned
> knowledges, such as Sorcery or Feng-shui, are heavily culturally
> determined.
> Now if you are going to say that they see in different languages,
> that is a pretty damn strange idea.
Sounds right. I like strange ideas... why not? Human languages are
made up symbols, are they not? And Chinese pictograms are almost more
art than language - so maybe the Nephilim and Xian-Ren transmit
symbols to each other along the magic fields, and that's where the
basis for human language came from? Inscribed spells then would be
written in this "higher language", and when a Nephilim tries to learn
a new spell from written language, they are trying to discover the
elements of the higher language in the lower script.
> OK, you are one of those Sapir-Whorf uber alles from the post
> modernist fringe that I talked about!
Just on the side, I have no idea what this means... could you explain?
> The counter argument to this is simply that it is all a matter of
> degree not an absolute. Simply put, there must come a point where an
> outsider from a culture knows so much about it (assuming the implicit
> knowledge that comes from fluent speaking) that the lacking in his
> understanding is likely to also apply between many members of that culture.
Ah. But this is a human phenomenon you're speaking of, in my opinion.
I don't think it's as easy for Nephilim to adopt these notions as you
might think. In my opinion, Nephilim are the basis for all things
human (the idea that human culture has been guided by Nephilim,
history is a lie, etc.), and it makes a lot of sense to reflect the
East/West dichotomy by having that mirrored and made larger by a
Nephilim/Xian-Ren split. I see the conflict between east and west
made larger on the level of the Nephilim, and more profound, because
they again represent the "ideal" of the culture. Since
Nephilim/Xian-Ren _define_ the culture, this outsider adoption
phenomenon doesn't apply.
> I respect culture, I realise it is a powerful and pervasive
> influence on you thought, but I am not a cultural determinist. Just because
> a concept is from another culture, does not mean that it cannot be
> eventually understood, though it may be that you need to understand a lot
> about it, and on an implicit level, before you really understand.
I am not a cultural determinist either, and I'll agree that concepts
from other cultures can readily be understood (at least on the human
level). But trying to get westerners to understand that there are
more gray values than black and white ones is probably as difficult as
approaching a Nephilim and telling him that Wood is an important
ka-element - they probably can understand, but why would they want to?
They obviously prefer what they know; the only Nephilim that I could
really see being interested in other magic systems would probably be
the Magician Arcanum, and that's about it. Maybe the World too, since
we don't really know what that is yet...
> What, even outsiders willing to spend probably several lifetimes of
> intense study in learning a magical art to Grand Secret level, probably
> studying the culutre of origin by necessity as they go? I don't think so.
> Of course it is hard to learn the Grand Secrets of another culture,
> but its bloody hard to learn those of your own as well.
> Can't we just let this issue slide, because it is so unlikely to
> arise in a game situation anyway?
> For the record, I think that if a Western Nephilim has spent the
> last two centuries in Tibet studying Yoga, he probably knows as much about
> that culture as any native by now.
I'll grant all of this. But again, you're talking about the human
culture; I'll agree that the Nephilim will probably understand the
human culture in two centuries. The Xian-Ren culture, on the other
hand, might not be so easy to understand - he may not even be accepted
by them because he is so foolish and uses the ka of the moon! I think
it's a pretty important issue because it'll eventually help determine
what interactions between Nephilim and Xian-Ren will be like in future
games and supplements. But, this is all just IMHO anyway.
Mike
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr (Laurent MYNARD)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:57:15 +0200
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Elemental equivalencies
Ross:
[...]
> Nephilim see the Ka elements as fields, for example, which Xian-ren
> see it as moving along lines (Ley Lines or Dragon Veins). This
> mirrors the dichotomy between the two cultures.
[...]
I don't know if the analogy is correct, but to me,it appears like seeing
light as particles or as waves (is it the right translation? I am not sure
of my english vocabulary in physics). We now know that light is both (particles
_and_ waves), but during many years, scientists quarreled to know which view
was the right one. Now imagine that noone found a proof that it is both. There
would probably be nowadays two communities with different views about the
nature of light, two views which _seem_ different and incompatible, whereas
they are both true (probably because of the lack of a more general model).
In the same way, Nephilim and Xian-ren could have different views on Ka,
both right, but different...
I have no idea if the analogy has any interest. I even am not sure that what
I said about the nature of light is true and exact!
Laurent.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mikey@ayup.res.wpi.edu (Michael V. Caprio Jr.)
Subject: What is Ka-vision?
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:57:33 -0500 (EST)
Judy Routt writes:
> > > From my perspective, the rainbow analogy is the most
> > > illuminating, but I think the language one has merits also.
> > > Obviously no analogy is seamless, as has been pointed out,
> > > but the language-related one drives home what I think is an
> > > important point - we are equating Ka-Vision with human vision.
> > > As I see it, it is not necessarily anything like vision -
> > > no-one's using eyes, and Ka-elements are Ka-elements, not actually
> > > colours. Ka-Vision is just a different sense - an alien one to us
> > > (makes it hard, huh?). For all we know it could be a perception
> > > more related to smell or taste than actual seeing. So, an
> > > analogy that reduces Ka-Vision perception differences to a
> > > function of understanding rather than a direct sense is definitely
> > > a neat idea, in my opinion.
I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, Judy. This is really what
I was trying to say; the way I see it in the game, I don't picture
Nephilim "talking" to each other in ka-vision... they just know what
the other one is "saying", or they can understand the thoughts the
other is expressing. This fits in with the "divine language" idea
entirely - can you imagine a direct mind-to-mind communication, where
ideas don't have to be compressed into words to make concepts
understandable? That's what it would be like - a language composed
entirely of concepts and not of words, of feelings and emotions and
images, but not of names of these things? It's very difficult to
envision, and even more difficult to write about, but that's how I see
it happening in my universe...
At any rate - assuming that this is what is happening, and Xian-Ren
_do_ have a different set of concepts than Nephilim, then absolutely,
they will have completely different ka-vision "languages". And I
think that's a good reason for justifying why it is so difficult for
a Nephilim to learn spells from another culture/concept set.
David Cake writes:
> > I think that the most important differences between senses are the
> > obvious functional ones that we know about. In that sense,
> > Ka-Vision seems to work a lot like vision - it is directional, it
> > is blocked by intervening objects, it gives you spatial information
> > about something, etc. Now I agree that subjectively it might seem
> > very different, and there are many other empirical functional
> > differences that we could point out as well, but it seems more like
> > vision than any of our sense.
We are forced by language to "box" ideas into categories that we can
understand... in this case, we're saying that the method of
perception that the Nephilim use to sense the magic fields is called
"ka-vision". That doesn't mean that the Nephilim doesn't "feel" the
power of a field, or "hear" a magical object calling to him (or
another Nephilim talking in Enochian for that matter - how does a
solely visual analogy explain that?).
> > Well, all senses are a function of understanding to some
> > extent. My objection was more to Ka-Vision being specifically like
> > language, rather than like hearing - ie a very subjective learned
> > experience. Equivalent, perhaps, to seeing everything as a symbol,
> > with the underlying shape usually ignored. Equivalent to the way we
> > read, but not the way we see.
Well, that's not exactly right - I think what you're trying to say is
that human understanding is a function of the senses, which is true.
If someone took your brain out of your body and hooked it up to a VR
machine so that all the sensing neurons were connected to it, you'd
have no idea you were just a brain in a jar; you'd accept the man-made
reality as your own.
Now that's the material world. The Nephilim live in the realm of the
spirit, and thus see the spiritual nature of things (or, if you don't
like the word spirit, think immaterial, or supernatural. Whatever).
Here, all humans look like golden cylinders, and when Nephilim embody
in humans, they take on different shapes and colors, etc. The
Nephilim are perceiving on an entirely different level from what any
human has ever experienced. Nephilim are in direct contact with the
universe, made up of primal, mystical forces - and they can percieve
the currents of the universe, the flows and eddies of the powerful
ka-elements. Here in the world of the Nephilim, metaphor is
everything, magic is induced by association, and so forth. So of
course they percieve everything symbolically - they are _living_
symbols.
Ian Young writes:
> If I understand correctly, Dave suggests that Ka-vision is
> independent of interpretation, that it is simply an innate and
> objective sense of the Nephilim. I suspect that the truth lay, not
> surprisingly, somewhere in the middle, that both interpretations are
> correct. The description of the Nephilim clearly states that they
> are creatures who see beyond the mundane surface nature of the world
> and perceive the characteristics of the world as allegory and
> metaphor (i.e. color is an emotion, a shape is an entity, etc.).
> So, in almost every way, it is akin to the manner in which we read,
> not just the way we see. I suppose the crux of the question is, do
> all Nephilim read the same way, and are they all "born" with the
> innate ability to read? If the senses and thoughts of the
> Nephilim seem "pretty damned strange" to us, it is because they are
> so very alien to us. They are, indeed, "other" creatures.
I like this approach too - this is a very eloquent way of saying what
I tried to say up top. :)
Mike
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Liam Routt
Subject: Re: Ka-Vision or Language
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:48:01 +1100 (EST)
David writes:
> I think that the most important differences between senses are the
> obvious functional ones that we know about. In that sense, Ka-Vision seems
> to work a lot like vision - it is directional, it is blocked by intervening
> objects, it gives you spatial information about something, etc.
This leads me to a rules question. What indications do the rules give
that Ka-Vision is directional in the way sight is? Hearing is direction
and blocked by objects too, and gives bats spatial information... I don't
have my rules with me here at work, so I areally can't remember what is
said about Ka-Vision, execpet that I never thought that it was sufficient...
And on a topic from a week ago, I cannto remember anything that indicates
that elements pool in the objects of their kind; Water Ka doesn't fill
oceans, or flow down rivers, and fires are not filled with Fire Ka. My
understanding was that the fields flow through and around everything,
and the only things with pools of a particular element are the Nephilim
and the humans (Solar-Ka). And magical creatures, of course. But a
Salamander is not a brazier of burning embers, it is a magical creature.
Am I wrong about this? If I'm right, then the associations with elements
are not as tied to the physical world as people were arguing (about East
vs west elements). You never see objects which might have either Water or
Metal Ka or Chi, as the fields simply _are_, and are not looked in
particular objects...
Liam
--
"My name is Liam. I too am an agent Liam Routt
of the Lord. I ask your aid." Darcsyde Productions
- Xombi, Issue 3 repulse@zikzak.net
Zikzak private access UNIX, Melbourne, Australia.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael_A._Schumann@mit.bison.mb.ca (Michael A. Schumann)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Elemental equivalencies
Date: 29 Mar 1995 23:56:04 GMT
Since the rule book describes the eyes of the simulacrum rolling back, showing
white, I assumed Ka-Vision was not visual but rather like sensing, or feeling
in a spiritual sense.
Michael S
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 10:49:48 +0800
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Ka-Vision or Language
>This leads me to a rules question. What indications do the rules give
>that Ka-Vision is directional in the way sight is? Hearing is direction
>and blocked by objects too, and gives bats spatial information...
Well, bats hearing is more like our sight than our hearing from a
functional point of view as well, you seem to be a little confused about
what I meant - I speak only of what information we receive from the sense,
not how it operates. So, in the sense that Ka-Vision gives us spatial
information, it is more like our visual sense.
Ka-Vision also can see things at apparently infinite distance, and
is not blocked by vacuum (ie - you can see the planets), making it like our
visual sense in that respect as well.
Basically, Vision makes the best metaphor for Ka-Vision. There are
significant differences, but vision is definately the closest.
>And on a topic from a week ago, I cannot remember anything that indicates
>that elements pool in the bjects of their kind; Water Ka doesn't fill
>oceans, or flow down rivers, and fires are not filled with Fire Ka. My
>understanding was that the fields flow through and around everything,
>and the only things with pools of a particular element are the Nephilim
>and the humans (Solar-Ka). And magical creatures, of course. But a
>Salamander is not a brazier of burning embers, it is a magical creature.
>Am I wrong about this? If I'm right, then the associations with elements
>are not as tied to the physical world as people were arguing (about East
>vs west elements). You never see objects which might have either Water or
>Metal Ka or Chi, as the fields simply _are_, and are not looked in
>particular objects...
Well, I took it as saying that there are fields in everything, and
particular fields are strongest in particular things. A stream makes the
water Ka stronger in that area, etc. Nephilim and magic creatures are the
only things composed of Ka, though.
Cheers
David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:27:08 +0800
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Elemental equivalencies
>If I understand correctly, Dave suggests that Ka-vision is independent of
>interpretation, that it is simply an innate and objective sense of the
>Nephilim.
I was not suggesting this exactly. I was suggesting that there are
aspects of it that are 'objective'. But certainly there is a lot of ground
for interpretation there. There is a spectrum, with at one end seeing a
hill, and knowing it is a bit where the ground goes up (objective), and at
the other end writing or knowing that a red octagon means stop. All I am
saying is that the objective end definately exists.
>I suspect that the truth lay, not surprisingly, somewhere in
>the middle, that both interpretations are correct. The description of
>the Nephilim clearly states that they are creatures who see beyond the
>mundane surface nature of the world and perceive the characteristics of
>the world as allegory and metaphor (i.e. color is an emotion, a shape is
>an entity, etc.). So, in almost every way, it is akin to the manner in
>which we read, not just the way we see. I suppose the crux of the
>question is, do all Nephilim read the same way, and are they all "born"
>with the innate ability to read? If the senses and and thoughts of the
>Nephilim seem "pretty damned strange" to us, it is because they are so
>very alien to us. They are, indeed, "other" creatures.
Yeah, I agree. Ka-Vision itself is all a sort of metaphor. But I
think that within the game universe (where Nephilim have always existed
independently of human culture, and indeed humans) we must assume that
there is some objective component to Ka-Vision.
> Well, no hard and fast answers there (again, no surprise). Glad
>to be aboard, though.
Good to have you.
Cheers
David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:53:34 +0800
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Ka-Vision
>Since the rule book describes the eyes of the simulacrum rolling back, showing
>white, I assumed Ka-Vision was not visual but rather like sensing, or feeling
>in a spiritual sense.
And I assumed that Ka-Vision replaced your visual sense (you can
still hear, touch, smell, taste will using Ka-Vision I guess, but you can't
use visual sight).
But Ka-Vision is not vision, and there are probably important
differences between it and vision.
So
- Ka-Vision and vision can not both be used at the same time
- Ka-Vision is more like vision than it is like any human sense.
Which means that apart from the obvious differences in what you
perceive, Ka-Vision can be treated like vision for most purposes.
Cheers
David
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: (Chaosium@aol.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:48:35 -0500
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Ka Vision
Ka Vision:
Ka Vision is a different sense, unique, but closer to mundane vision than to
the other "classic" senses. I see it working much like I understand psychic
or auric vision to work in our world, but with modifications to accomodate
gamers. Don't get straight-jacketed by the vision model, because it is NOT
simply vision of the underlying ephemeral reality, but an awareness of that
reality as expressed throught the filters of one or more of our physical
senses. People are primarily vision oriented, so vision is the most
accessable model to write into the game, and gives the PC the greatest amount
of detail. But in true psychic sensing, it is possible to percieve the same
information as color, or a sound, or a feeling, perhaps even a taste. The
point here is that we are perceiving something that is non-physical, and to
translate it into something that our rational minds can work with, we
"filter" it through a physical sense, much in the same way (perhaps exactly
the same way?) that symbols and metaphor are a filter for underlying meaning.
Again, don't get stuck on the filter and miss the meaning underneath.
So anyway, this is how I run Ka-vision in the game, as primarily visual
information, but with some information from the other senses as well: a
sudden, slow warmth or a wet, sticky feeling; inexplicable anxious moments;
erie, silent symphonies; etc. Also, as such, it is not limited to 180
degree frontal view, but when predominantly using the vision model, I assume
that the PCs are "used" to only looking ahead, and usually miss things to the
back. A sound or a feeling can come form any direction though, or none at
all.
Since using psychic senses seems to require a certain mindset that focuses on
those psychic sensations to the exclusion of the material senses, I run it so
that the Nephilim are not aware of their other senses when using Ka-vision. A
sudden jolt, loud noise, etc, will bring them out of it and back to the
material world.
Also, Ka-Vision can see through objects, but to limit the x-ray vision
powers, we made seeing through things hazy and indistinct so that the GM
could have a handy dodge when she wants it.
Of course, you can run Ka-vision differently if you wish, but this is how I
understand it. Admittedly, the rules are a simplified version of this, but
that's the nature of rules; we didn't write the whole sum of the world into
the game. If you take a whole lot of simple yet detailed rules and put them
into a game, you end up with an unfathomably complex, yet very detailed,
monstrosity. And you'd never finish, but if you did it would outweigh the
Encyclopedia Britannica, and somebody would still ask you, "but what about
the super-hyper intelligent hive-mind fish people being cross-teleported
through a self-aware wormhole named 'Bicka-bicka-bicka'? What happens? You
left that out!!!"
Sam Shirley
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: riu@soronlin.demon.co.uk (Richard Urwin)
Subject: Re: Ka Vision
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 95 18:38:32 GMT
In article <950331134833_67418882@aol.com> Sam writes:
>People are primarily vision oriented, so vision is the most
>accessable model to write into the game,
granted, but given that,...
>Ka Vision is a different sense, unique, but closer to mundane vision than to
>the other "classic" senses.
It's probably closer to the electrical sense posessed by some fish.
This is a general field awareness, and it can be used for communication.
It can see through objects, but is a very bad medium for seeing certain
things.
So if you haven't got auric vision and you understand electrical
fields maybe it's a worthwhile metaphor.
--
Richard Urwin - riu@soronlin.demon.co.uk - short post; short sig
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Judy Routt (gelfling@zikzak.net)
Subject: Re: Ka-Vision
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:38:36 +1000 (EST)
David wrote, replying to Michael S...
> And I assumed that Ka-Vision replaced your visual sense (you can
> still hear, touch, smell, taste will using Ka-Vision I guess, but you can't
> use visual sight).
> But Ka-Vision is not vision, and there are probably important
> differences between it and vision.
> So
> - Ka-Vision and vision can not both be used at the same time
> - Ka-Vision is more like vision than it is like any human sense.
> Which means that apart from the obvious differences in what you
> perceive, Ka-Vision can be treated like vision for most purposes.
Okay. this is how I see it. Shout me down if this has been said before.
Ka Vision is a Nephilim sense. Hearing, touch, taste, smell, vision are
human senses. I see no reason why the Nephilim should be able to access
*any* of the human senses while it's doing its Ka-Vision thang. The
Simulacrum rolls its eyes back and quivers slightly. The Nephilim is
disassociating its senses from those of the human in order to see the
world differently.
I'm not sure the Nephilim itself *has* any other senses but ka-vision - it
seems to be a fairly all-encompassing sense for someone who doesn't actually
exist on the physical plane.
Regards,
Judy Routt
--
gelfling@zikzak.net
***Note the new address***
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:57:07 +0800
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Ka-Vision
>Ka Vision is a Nephilim sense. Hearing, touch, taste, smell, vision are
>human senses. I see no reason why the Nephilim should be able to access
>*any* of the human senses while it's doing its Ka-Vision thang. The
>Simulacrum rolls its eyes back and quivers slightly. The Nephilim is
>disassociating its senses from those of the human in order to see the
>world differently.
True enough in theory.
In practice, there are obviously some senses that a Nephilim can
access in some sense when using Ka-Vision - after all, it can walk around,
and even attack in HTH, which frankly is very difficult without
proprioception, balance, etc. It could be argued that the simulacrum has
access to the other sense while the Nephilim doesn't, or something. Vision,
then, is still notable as the sense that the simulacrum doesn't have access
too either.
>I'm not sure the Nephilim itself *has* any other senses but ka-vision - it
>seems to be a fairly all-encompassing sense for someone who doesn't actually
>exist on the physical plane.
I agree. I also agree with the idea that what can be seen with
Ka-vision might be best explainable in non-visual terms, like moist or
painful or poignant.
But still, the galringly obvious remains - Ka-Vision, in terms of
how it operates, appears to be a lot more like vision than anything else,
and for explanation of how it works, vision is the best metaphor.
Cheers
Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:50:50 -0500
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: Rick_Neal@MBnet.MB.CA (Rick Neal)
Subject: Re: Ka-Vision
>The Nephilim is
>disassociating its senses from those of the human in order to see the
>world differently.
>
>I'm not sure the Nephilim itself *has* any other senses but ka-vision - it
>seems to be a fairly all-encompassing sense for someone who doesn't actually
>exist on the physical plane.
>
>Regards,
> Judy Routt
>
>--
>gelfling@zikzak.net
>
>***Note the new address***
This seems to me to be the case. When not incarnated, the Nephilim can
perceive only through Ka-vision, which distinguishes only Ka-fields. I
would rule (and do, in my world) that the sense does not cross over to any
human sense at all. I would describe perceptions using a mish-mash of
other sensory images, so that my (human) players would have to do some
interpretation.
Having this perception of the Ka-fields as their only sense, the Nephilim
would, of course, have to communicate through manipulation of the fields.
This is the Enochian language.
Rick Neal.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------