From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Mon Mar 20 04:49:51 1995
From: Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr (Laurent MYNARD (equipe MUSTIL).)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Solar Magic
> However - this makes me think of another interesting solar-ka psychic
> sphere... the Sphere of Other (yeah, I know I have to think of a
> better name - maybe the Sphere of Planes? or Spirit?). Basically,
> it's like Nephilim Summoning, except it's _channelling_. You can
> channel the spirits of people long dead, talk to ghosts of people
> recently dead, etc. This has all really got me thinking about a
> system, and it's a little frustrating since I can't work on it - all
> my books are at home. But I do intend to do at least for my own
> edification.
What you describe here is Necromancy, i.e. black moon magic, as it is
described in (french) Selenim supplement. I think it would probably be
a mistake to include such spells in a "solar ka magical system",
because it is already part of the black moon system...
Laurent.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Mon Mar 20 10:45:09 1995
From: mikey@ayup.res.wpi.edu (Michael V. Caprio Jr.)
Subject: Re: Solar Magic
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
> > However - this makes me think of another interesting solar-ka psychic
> > sphere... the Sphere of Other (yeah, I know I have to think of a
> > better name - maybe the Sphere of Planes? or Spirit?). Basically,
> > it's like Nephilim Summoning, except it's _channelling_. You can
> > channel the spirits of people long dead, talk to ghosts of people
> > recently dead, etc. This has all really got me thinking about a
> > system, and it's a little frustrating since I can't work on it - all
> > my books are at home. But I do intend to do at least for my own
> > edification.
> What you describe here is Necromancy, i.e. black moon magic, as it
> is described in (french) Selenim supplement. I think it would
> probably be a mistake to include such spells in a "solar ka magical
> system", because it is already part of the black moon system...
> Laurent.
That makes a lot of sense - if you consider Black Moon to be the
opposite of Sun, then it would definitely be a Life magic vs. Death
magic kind of thing. I had completely forgotten about black lunar ka
and what possible magics might be worked under it.
Laurent - could you post more details about Necromancy? I don't think
anyone will object...
Sam/Ross/anybody involved in Selenim? - could you tell us more details
about whether a Necromancy like thing will be in Chaosium's future
(namely the Selenim supplement)?
Mike
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From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Tue Mar 21 04:39:33 1995
From: Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr (Laurent MYNARD)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Selenim, eastern neph, neph as metaphors
Mike:
> Laurent - could you post more details about Necromancy? I don't think
> anyone will object...
>
> Sam/Ross/anybody involved in Selenim? - could you tell us more details
> about whether a Necromancy like thing will be in Chaosium's future
> (namely the Selenim supplement)?
I am currently working on Selenim translation with a friend of mine.
Unfortunately, I think that Sam will be very angry at me, because we
won't be able to respect the due date we had decided... Well, the
translation is not finished at all. I don't know what Sam will think
about this, maybe he will prefer someone else to translate it, because
we are to slow translators. Sam?
Necromancy. Well. Selenim rules state that some part of the solar ka
remain in the dead bodies (even in the very old ones), and Selenim are
able to manipulate this remaining solar-ka. Necromancy is the main
way for spending time for Selenim. Selenim seem most of the time to
like the Deads. The necromancy spells can be divided in three main
parts: calm and peace for the dead (most of them need time to
understand that they are dead... The description of the many different
behaviours of the Deads is very funny), communication, and at last
control. The first one is the most easy, while the last one is the
most complex and dangerous. Hmmm, very hard to make an abstract from
pages and pages of rules. I think that the best is that I prepare
(with the rules near me) a precise abstract to post on the
mailing-list. I guess it can be done at the end of the week. Just a
last remark about Selenim magic: necromancy is very close to the
Nephilim sorcery; there is a black summoning, dedicated to black moon
creatures. But there is absolutely nothing like a black alchemy.
They never needed such thing.
> Hmm... you know what I'm thinking? Maybe Buddha and Akhenaton were
> the same guy. You could write it that way, never really come out and
> say it, but imply it... maybe he starts this one tradition in the East
> a thousand or so years before he goes and starts an opposing one in
> the West - now that would really make it seem like Akhenaton had his
> own Grand Plan, wouldn't it? Be kind of interesting to write it like
> a _Foundation_ type thing, where the protagonist sets up two different
> cultures to achieve this thousands of years plan of manipulating
> history.
I love this idea!!!
Ross:
> Hold on a minute. They have the same Ka-elements - Fire, Water, Earth, Metal
> and Wood. There is a correspondence between the two systems. There must be.
> They must use the same rules.
>
> Perhaps I misspoke. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. They are not going
> to be that radically different in principle. The nomenclature will be
> different. But we are still talking about the same elemental fields.
Your view is now very more clear, Ross. Thanks for the details and
precisions you gave because I had really misunderstood your meaning
(as many people did, didn't they). Now I know that you don't want to
build a new game with completely different concepts. In the same way,
I think that the discussion about Nephilims as metaphors of the human
awakening was very important. At the beginning, I had not understood
clearly what Sam meant with this. Now it is clearer. Whereas I
disagreed with him at the beginning, I now completely agree. Nephilim
represent one thing, as a game philosophy, but might (must?) be played
as something else in the game (independant entities). There is no
contradiction. But it should probably have been made clearer at the
beginning of the discussion.
Laurent.
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From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Thu Mar 23 16:58:52 1995
From: Laurent MYNARD (Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu, Chaosium@aol.com
Subject: Selenim summary
I promised to do it, and I do it! Here is a summary about the french
Selenim supplement. This is not official, this is only my own opinion
about it. I know that this summary is not perfect. For example, if
other french players on this mailing list detect mistakes, tell it,
please. In the same way, if anyone see some points which are
unlogical with the american rules, tell it (it will help for the
translation).
The best description for Selenim as described in the french
supplement is psychological vampires. Selenim, as you know, are black
moon creatures. But black moon is an unstable magical field.
Therefore, Selenim need to regularly feed. To achieve it, they drain
the solar ka from humans, and convert it into black moon ka. Thus,
they are specialists of the mental manipulation, because they need
intense emotions to feed on humans (such as fear, love, faith, and so
on). That is the main reason why Selenim love the night (that is the
reason of the vampire myth): dreamers are easy preys.
According to the rules presented in this supplement, a part of
the solar ka remains in the dead bodies. It makes it possible for the
Selenim to communicate with the deads. Thus, they developed a new
magical system, the Necromancy, which can be compared to some sort of
Black Moon Sorcery. There are three main parts in Necromancy. The
first and easiest one is the calming down of the deads (such spells
make the dead be in peace). The interest of taking care of the deads
in such a way is mainly esthetical. To be precise, when you are in
black ka vision, you can hear the black moon fields as well as see
them. This music is called the Pavane (I did not found any satisfying
translation for the moment), and playing with the pavane is something
very important to the Selenim. The second part is communication,
which allows to talk with the people which are still able to
communicate (that is not the case for all of them). The interest of
such an experiment is evident. The last and most complex part is the
control of the dead bodies, which includes the creation of zombies,
for example.
Contrary to the Nephilim magic, the Selenim magic requires to
expand some Black Moon Ka, because of the unstable state of this
field. In reality, there are many cases where the Selenim must spend
their Ka, and that is the reason why they must often feed on the
humans. For example, there exist another Selenim magical system: the
black summoning, which deals with black moon creatures (very funny!).
Another important point is that the Selenim cannot reach Agartha,
since they have lost all the fields but black moon. But they
discovered their own equivalent, which is the building of a Realm. A
realm is some sort of black moon ka pool, which the builder of the
realm can shape exactly as he wishes. The kings of the realms are the
most powerful Selenim. The realms described more precisely in the
supplement are Paris (3 realms in this city!), New-Orleans, Rostock,
Brighton (I know that this location will surprise many of you),
Transylvania (with the explanation of who Vlad Dracul was) and Yemen.
When do you become able to build a realm? When your Imago has become
huge enough. The Imago is in a way the equivalent to the Selenim of
the Metamorphosis. It is a shape that the Selenim build for themself
directly from the black moon fields. This Imago is most of the time
invisible, but can be made real. This process can be very, very
painful and dangerous for the Selenim simulacrum! And your Imago can
become real even if you don't wish it, for example in a black moon
plexus, or when you don't have enough black moon left (this awful
state is called Entropy). If you want to build your Imago, you have
to spend huge amounts of black moon ka.
Selenim cannot change their simulacrum until they have built a
realm. They are not immortal, and must take great care of their
simulacrum. But the body doesn't decay any longer. It seems in
reality that the aging process is so slow that the simulacrum ages
only 1 year every century. Think about the current problems of the
Selenim with money, inheritance, identity and so on, as soon as their
life becomes long (some centuries).
There are two hierarchical structures among the Selenim. The
first one is the arcanum XIII, of course, but it is now very weak.
The main reason is the awful power of the second structure, the cult
of Lilith. Lilith was the leader of the Nephilim who decided to turn
themselves into Selenim in order to save the Nephilim race. Thus she
is one of the oldest living Selenim and is so powerful that she can be
considered as a goddess. There is a conflict between the Arcanum and
the Cult, which is one of the main subject of the long campaign at the
end of the supplement.
Well. I think that I wrote the most important things about the
french Selenim supplement.
Feel free to ask any precision!
Laurent.
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From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Mon Apr 24 04:51:44 1995
From: Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr (Laurent MYNARD)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Solar creatures
Ross wrote:
> What I'm proposing is the opposite of a Black Moon Nephilim. Black
> Moon and Sun are opposites. One is dark (feasting on blood) the
> other is light. Just as Selenim spend Black Moon Ka, a Solar
> Nephilim spends Solar-Ka points. They have their own unique brand of
> magic. They are bizarre characters, and are pariahs amongst their
> own kind. They were meant to introduce some new occult ideas into
> the game.
>
> Michael - if you want to know what the Black Moon is, read
> Nephilim again. Laurent is translating the Selenim book into
> English, so he knows more about it than the rest of us. So perhaps
> he can tell us exactly what the Black Moon is.
A short precision. The Selenim supplement and some precision given by
the author recently indicate that a few Selenim, after having become
very powerful (the equivalent of a Nephilim Agarthan), found a way to
turn their Black Moon Ka back into Solar Ka (that means, to reverse
the process which give them their power). They then became Sun
Creatures, it seems. But is a creature with a Solar-Ka of 300 or 400
still Human??? Thus, contrary to what I previously meant, Ross, your
idea of Solar Creatures is not incoherent (I apologize...). But it
_seems_ that the authors had thought to them only as highly powerful
creatures.
Laurent.
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From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Mon Apr 24 20:03:40 1995
From: mikey@ayup.res.wpi.edu (Michael V. Caprio Jr.)
Subject: Re: Solar creatures
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
> A short precision. The Selenim supplement and some precision given
> by the author recently indicate that a few Selenim, after having
> become very powerful (the equivalent of a Nephilim Agarthan), found
> a way to turn their Black Moon Ka back into Solar Ka (that means, to
> reverse the process which give them their power). They then became
> Sun Creatures, it seems. But is a creature with a Solar-Ka of 300 or
> 400 still Human??? Thus, contrary to what I previously meant, Ross,
> your idea of Solar Creatures is not incoherent (I apologize...). But
> it _seems_ that the authors had thought to them only as highly
> powerful creatures. Laurent.
Okay, question - maybe Sam or someone else working on it can answer?
Is this the path that the Sarcophagi method leads to? I know that in
the prospectus the sarcophagus is the key to Selenim Agartha, and the
Great Pyramids are a part of that, etc. Maybe a "True Path"
supplement is in order to chronicle the various journeys to Agartha
that have been taken (to include Laurent's other post about the
Sorcery revelation) - or this could be part of the GM companion?
Mike
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Tue Apr 25 15:35:46 1995
From: (Chaosium@aol.com)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Nephilim Digest V1 #98
>>Okay, question - maybe Sam or someone else working on it can answer?
Is this the path that the Sarcophagi method leads to? I know that in
the prospectus the sarcophagus is the key to Selenim Agartha, and the
Great Pyramids are a part of that, etc. Maybe a "True Path"
supplement is in order to chronicle the various journeys to Agartha
that have been taken (to include Laurent's other post about the
Sorcery revelation) - or this could be part of the GM companion?<<
Frankly, I don't now exactly what's in the French Selenim book, It is being
translated, but I have not seen it in yet, and I don't know how much of it
we'll use, or in what way. Laurent keeps posting things about the French
version which may or may not make it into the English version, and I
obviously cannot comment on them before I have a good idea of what he is
talking about.
Sam Shirley
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From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Wed Apr 26 06:09:17 1995
From: Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr (Laurent MYNARD)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Artefacts, Selenim, Rituals and Assyrians...
> From: "Isaacs, Ross"
> I also included Relics - these are magic items that do not need the
> wielder's Ka-element and Technique to work. They use their own. I
> don't want to spoil any surprises, so I'll stop there.
First, your own artefact rules seem to make sense, to be logical,and
not to be in real contradiction with anything I wrote, no? You know,
the rules I summarized were only three pages long, in a book not
dedicated to magical items but to sorcery. Thus I think that if you
provide a more complete set of rules for them, it will be fine!
Just a precision. I did not tell about relics I my abstract, but
there are some words about them in the supplement. Relics are
presented as objects which contain some part of the Nephilim memory
and recollections, used to transmit his knowledge to the future. I
will give you details in some days (I do not have my books with me
right now).
> From: (Chaosium@aol.com)
> Frankly, I don't now exactly what's in the French Selenim book, It is being
> translated, but I have not seen it in yet, and I don't know how much of it
> we'll use, or in what way. Laurent keeps posting things about the French
> version which may or may not make it into the English version, and I
> obviously cannot comment on them before I have a good idea of what he is
> talking about.
I can only give precisions about the french view on Selenim. There is
no precise track of Selenim using Sarcophagi methods or the Great
Pyramids in any supplement or rules. I rather think (but that it ONLY
my _very personal_ opinion) that sarcophagi and pyramids are linked
more to Nephilim than to Selenim, because it was a part of the Great
Compromise which Akhenaton broke up, no? Did he not open the pyramids
and the sarcophagi to free some ancient and powerful Nephilim? I
thought that. But in all cases, I don't believe that the Selenim were
at the origin of the pyramids. They 'gave' Egypt to the Nephilim,
while they themselves prefer some more eastern countries (Mesopotamia
and so on).
Selenim cannot reach Agartha. They are cursed, only Nephilim, with
the five main elements can reach Agartha. It seems that the main
point in reaching Agartha is the ability to move to the Subtle Plans,
to live in Akashas, and so on. Selenim cannot do that. They are cut
from the Subtle Plans, and have not more ways to reach them than any
normal Human, for example. But they have their own 'goal',
'achievement', or any other word which could describe what Agartha is
to the Nephilim. This purely Selenim goal is the creation of a Realm
(i.e an huge black-moon pool which the Selenim can inhabit and shape
as he wishes). Creating a Realm is the equivalent of Agartha from the
Selenim point of view, but it is different. You must be aware that
almost all Nephilim ignore the existence and the possibility of Realms
(in the same way they ignore most things linked with Selenim). From a
Nephilim point of view, Selenim are cursed not only because they lost
their 5 original elements, but because they lost any chance to ever
reach Agartha too.
> From: "John R. Snead" (jsnead@netcom.com)
> How about this: I've a problem with Nephilim magic, it is supposed to be
> old style European ceremonial magic. Such magic involved lots of ritual
> and many trappings. However, all a Nephilim needs is a copy of the book.
That is right, they only need a copy of the book. By the way, focuses
are not only books, but they may be paintings, sculptures,
buildings,... No? It leads me to the following question: what are
focuses? My own interpretation is that they are maps of how a
Nephilim must 'bend' the magical fields around himself in order to
achieve a given effect. Maybe someone has a more satisfying and/or
precise view?
> Here's an idea to both aid Nephilim in their spell casting, and to put
> more ritual in the magic.
>
[stuff deleted...]
>
> For every 5 full minutes spent performing ritual preparation (casting a
> circle, drawing magical diagrams, lighting candles, intoning words of
> power...) add 1d6 to both your casting roll, and your Ka roll. This
> bonus is limited by your level of skill at the various Lores and by the
> difficulty of the spell.
Does it not require very quickly an huge amount of d6 rolls??? I fear
it is a little bit a heavy system.
> From: pstaples@chs.mb.ca (Penny Staples)
> Okay, if you want to play at rewriting history, you got me in
> Nephilim-space. I was in fact referring to history as 'we' know it, rather
> than the history of the game. If we assume that Nephilim exist and control
> history, there are no valid assessments to be made; because human behavior
> and morality has always been guided, controlled, and/or dictated by the
> Nephilim.
> What I was trying to get at is the chimerical nature of human belief
> as a mirror on proposed Nephilim morality.
Hmmm, it was just some humour from me. I had understood what you
meant. It was just a joke. Although this corresponds to what I read in
the french material. Sorry.
Laurent.
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From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Wed Apr 26 15:27:30 1995
From: mikey@ayup.res.wpi.edu (Michael V. Caprio Jr.)
Subject: Re: Artefacts, Selenim, Rituals and Assyrians...
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
I wrote:
> > >>Okay, question - maybe Sam or someone else working on it can answer?
> > Is this the path that the Sarcophagi method leads to? I know that in
> > the prospectus the sarcophagus is the key to Selenim Agartha, and the
> > Great Pyramids are a part of that, etc. Maybe a "True Path"
> > supplement is in order to chronicle the various journeys to Agartha
> > that have been taken (to include Laurent's other post about the
> > Sorcery revelation) - or this could be part of the GM companion?<<
> > From:
> > Frankly, I don't now exactly what's in the French Selenim book, It is being
> > translated, but I have not seen it in yet, and I don't know how much of it
> > we'll use, or in what way. Laurent keeps posting things about the French
> > version which may or may not make it into the English version, and I
> > obviously cannot comment on them before I have a good idea of what he is
> > talking about.
> I can only give precisions about the french view on Selenim. There
> is no precise track of Selenim using Sarcophagi methods or the Great
> Pyramids in any supplement or rules. I rather think (but that it
> ONLY my _very personal_ opinion) that sarcophagi and pyramids are
> linked more to Nephilim than to Selenim, because it was a part of
> the Great Compromise which Akhenaton broke up, no? Did he not open
> the pyramids and the sarcophagi to free some ancient and powerful
> Nephilim?I thought that. But in all cases, I don't believe that the
> Selenim were at the origin of the pyramids. The 'gave' Egypt to the
> Nephilim, while they themselves prefer some more eastern countries
> (Mesopotamia and so on).
Let me get out my prospectus... pg. 4 on "incarnation development" -
'Selenim & Sarcophagus - eternal incarnation in one new form. return
to the sarcophagus to escape the sun and rejuvenated. Must consume
solar-ka.' On pg. 7, there are passages that refer to the Epoch of
Earth being the dominant age of the Selenim, and the Selenim path to
Agartha, which involves the sarcophagus and talks of the Devouring
Messiah of the Pyramid (can you say - Anubis? The dog headed god of the
underworld who ate your heart if you were bad?) who did it first.
Anyway, that's just a taste of what's in there. I personally love it,
and I love the parallels it draws to undead mummies and vampires in
their coffins and such. It all just fits together so darn well...
> Selenim cannot reach Agartha They are cursed, only Nephilim, with
> the five main elements can reach Agartha. It seems that the main
> point in reaching Agartha is the ability to move to the Subtle
> Plans, to live in Akashas, and so on. Selenim cannot do that. They
> are cut from the Subtle Plans, and have not more ways to reach them
> than any normal Human, for example. But they have their own 'goal',
> 'achievement', or any other word which could describe what Agartha
> is to the Nephilim. This purely Selenim goal is the creation of a
> Realm (i.e an huge black-moon pool which the Selenim can inhabit and
> shape as he wishes). Creating a Realm is the equivalent of Agartha
> from the Selenim point of view, but it is different. You must be
> aware that almost all Nephilim ignore the existence and the
> possibility of Realms (in the same way they ignore most things
> linked with Selenim). From a Nephilim point of view, Selenim are
> cursed not only because they lost their 5 original elements, but
> because they lost any chance to ever reach Agartha too
I would very much be interested in what the French supplements have to
say about the Subtle Planes. What are Akashas for instance? And do
the realms of the Selenim exist in the subtle planes? Maybe that is a
part of the Selenim Agartha? Could you post that info Laurent?
Mike
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Wed Apr 26 16:38:01 1995
From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Re: Artefacts, Selenim, Rituals and Assyrians...
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
> > I can only give precisions about the french view on Selenim. There
> > is no precise track of Selenim using Sarcophagi methods or the Great
> > Pyramids in any supplement or rules. I rather think (but that it
> > ONLY my _very personal_ opinion) that sarcophagi and pyramids are
> > linked more to Nephilim than to Selenim, because it was a part of
> > the Great Compromise which Akhenaton broke up, no? Did he not open
> > the pyramids and the sarcophagi to free some ancient and powerful
> > Nephilim?I thought that. But in all cases, I don't believe that the
> > Selenim were at the origin of the pyramids. The 'gave' Egypt to the
> > Nephilim, while they themselves prefer some more eastern countries
> > (Mesopotamia and so on).
> Let me get out my prospectus... pg. 4 on "incarnation development" -
> 'Selenim & Sarcophagus - eternal incarnation in one new form. return
> to the sarcophagus to escape the sun and rejuvenated. Must consume
> solar-ka.' On pg. 7, there are passages that refer to the Epoch of
> Earth being the dominant age of the Selenim, and the Selenim path to
> Agartha, which involves the sarcophagus and talks of the Devouring
> Messiah of the Pyramid (can you say - Anubis? The dog headed god of the
> underworld who ate your heart if you were bad?) who did it first.
>
> Anyway, that's just a taste of what's in there. I personally love it,
> and I love the parallels it draws to undead mummies and vampires in
> their coffins and such. It all just fits together so darn well...
Makes sense to me. Maybe the pyramids were a way to channel solar ka
directly into the Selenim who resided within?
> I would very much be interested in what the French supplements have to
> say about the Subtle Planes. What are Akashas for instance? And do
> the realms of the Selenim exist in the subtle planes? Maybe that is a
> part of the Selenim Agartha? Could you post that info Laurent?
I'm really curious to see if the French supplements detailed more than
one way to reach the subtle planes.
--
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet
Remember the story of Burt and the Piano
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Wed Apr 26 17:34:21 1995
From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Re: Solar creatures
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
> > A short precision. The Selenim supplement and some precision given
> > by the author recently indicate that a few Selenim, after having
> > become very powerful (the equivalent of a Nephilim Agarthan), found
> > a way to turn their Black Moon Ka back into Solar Ka (that means, to
> > reverse the process which give them their power). They then became
> > Sun Creatures, it seems. But is a creature with a Solar-Ka of 300 or
> > 400 still Human??? Thus, contrary to what I previously meant, Ross,
> > your idea of Solar Creatures is not incoherent (I apologize...). But
> > it _seems_ that the authors had thought to them only as highly
> > powerful creatures. Laurent.
> Okay, question - maybe Sam or someone else working on it can answer?
> Is this the path that the Sarcophagi method leads to? I know that in
> the prospectus the sarcophagus is the key to Selenim Agartha, and the
> Great Pyramids are a part of that, etc. Maybe a "True Path"
> supplement is in order to chronicle the various journeys to Agartha
> that have been taken (to include Laurent's other post about the
> Sorcery revelation) - or this could be part of the GM companion?
Maybe the Selenim have a way to reach the same Agartha as Nephilim.
Once they have enough Black Moon Ka they can build a structure like a
Pyramid at a powerful Nexus and replace their Black Moon Ka with Solar
Ka. I'd assume that if this process was interefered with in some way
the Black Moon Ka would absorb the Solar Ka and they would have
basically wasted all the time in the pyramid or where ever just come
come out less powerful. If it were to take say 10 years per point of
Black Moon Ka to be converted I can see why there are so few who
succeed. And there are sure to be a couple who have been intereuppted
and are quite unhappy wandering around.
--
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet
Remember the story of Burt and the Piano
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Thu Apr 27 09:00:42 1995
From: Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr (Laurent MYNARD)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Agartha
Well. Many reactions to my posting about Selenim and Agartha, it
seems. I will try to answer as completely as I can.
Mike, I do not know about this prospectus. I suppose that Chaosium
had precise idea about the Selenim while they wrote the basic rules.
I suppose they will alter and transform the french stuff (when my
translation will be finished, what is not immediatly...) to integrate
their ideas in them. I just told about what the french material is:
you are free to do anything you want with it. However, it seems to me
that a massive Selenim presence in Egypt would have been contrary to
the Great Compromise, because Selenim are very dangerous to the Humans
(by the way I absolutely do not understand the problem of morality
which rose up: it is a game, isn't it?). On the contrary, there were
surely 'things' in the pyramids, because mummies and so on must have
an origin. I think that what the Great Compromise exactly was should
be detailed. The Nephilim protected Egypt, and accepted to be put in
'jails' (when Akhenaton broke the compromise, did he not free Nephilim
who had been Pharaons in the past?). Why? Maybe inside these
'jails', they had still some sort of autonomy (as living mummies for
example) that permitted them to continue their occult research.
Well, you see: my main problem for Selenim in Egypt is the coherence
with the Great Compromise. If anyone has ideas...
And really and sincerely, Mike, there are some of your questions to
which I am not able to answer yet. Do the realms of the Selenim exist
in the subtle plans? It seems they do not. One explanation is that
the original Black Moon was not really a new magical field. If the
Saurians had been able to create completely a new field, they would
have been able to prevent its destruction, because such a creation
would have been the proof of an HUGE power. Black Moon was more
probably an huge concentrator linked with a convertor, which worked on
the solar fields. Being not exactly a magical field, Black Moon
cannot connect with the subtle plans, stricto sensu. Elements of such
an explanation exist in the Selenim book, but they are not organized
and clear. We cannot know exactly what the essence of the Black Moon
is, we can only know how it works. Do you see my problem?
More specifically about the subtle plans and the question of Curtis
("I'm really curious to see if the french supplements detailed more
than one way to reach the subtle planes"). The answer to my questions
to the authors about subtle plans was very simple: "subtle plans and
Akashic realms are whatever you want. They are present to allow you
anything." I can indicate several ways to reach subtle plans: the
ritual to become agarthan, a magical gate, a nexus, being transported
by a summoned creature, dreams (even Humans can reach subtle plans
thanks to dreams), drugs... But maybe I interpreted your question
wrongly. About another point, Curtis, I really hope that you are
right and that the idea is to build Agartha as a realm. I really like
this idea. For the moment, I know only about such a possibility for
Selenim (although it is not really Agartha) and for sorcerers. The
two next supplements in France should be dedicated to summoning and
alchemy. Then I will know...
Last point about Agartha in general. It seems that most of you
interpret Agartha as the ability to manipulate the 6th field, the
solar one. My very personal opinion is different. To me, Agartha is
not "the end of the road", but only the middle. Agartha is the
ability to become a Kaim again, to become stronger than the orichalka
which perturbated all the fields on earth and forced the Nephilim to
incarnate. Once a Nephilim has become a Kaim again, once he is able
to move to the subtle planes, he can then retry the Golden Path, and
start a new Quest to master the solar field. Maybe this
interpretation is senseless, but it is mine...
Laurent.
P.S: Peter, sorry, I know Tours area very badly...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Thu Apr 27 15:04:07 1995
From: (Chaosium@aol.com)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Selenim in Egypt
I don't believe our in-house history has Selenim in Egypt. We have
created some ideas of the development of Nephilim "technology" through
the ages. One thread of development is the sarcophagus to the pyramid,
which is not to say that Selenim inhabit the pyramids, but that the
magical purpose and utility of a pyramid is a refinement upon the idea
of the sarcophagus.
The upcoming Gamemaster's Companion has a timeline which explains some
of this.
>>To me, Agartha is not "the end of the road", but only the
middle. Agartha is the ability to become a Kaim again, to become
stronger than the orichalka which perturbated all the fields on earth
and forced the Nephilim to incarnate. Once a Nephilim has become a
Kaim again, once he is able to move to the subtle plans, he can then
retry the Golden Path, and start a new Quest to master the solar
field. Maybe this interpretation is senseless, but it is mine... <<
Yes, I agree.
Sam Shirley
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Fri Apr 28 11:10:59 1995
From: jason@sable.adelphi.edu (The Unseelie)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: The Selenim: The metaphor view...
Okay...if the Nephilim-as-metaphor theory is put into practice, this
is my idea on how the Selenim fit in: they're the so called "left-hand
path" of occultism and spirituality, like LaVeyan satanism. They
produce nothing of their own-all their power comes from tapping others.
They can never achieve Agartha (unity and self-knowledge) so they set
to create a Realm - a space where they can exert all the power they
want, and customise to their own desires. Laurent says that the Selenim
don't have a metamorphosis, but an Imago: an illusion that they
put on when it suits them, and that they can only fully express in
their Realm.
How does this sound? Sam? Ross? Laurent?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jason@sable.adelphi.edu is also known|"And leave you there
elsewhere as Faust, ThE uNsEeLiE, and| by yourself, chained to fate"
Werther Goethenkin. Support polynymy!| _I_Alone_, Live
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Fri Apr 28 10:15:36 1995
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: The Selenim: The metaphor view...
>Okay...if the Nephilim-as-metaphor theory is put into practice, this
>is my idea on how the Selenim fit in: they're the so called "left-hand
>path" of occultism and spirituality, like LaVeyan satanism. They
>produce nothing of their own-all their power comes from tapping others.
I prefer to think that the 'all power comes from tapping others'
path is more to do with Black Star sorcerers, the magic of the Templars.
>They can never achieve Agartha (unity and self-knowledge) so they set
>to create a Realm - a space where they can exert all the power they
>want, and customise to their own desires. Laurent says that the Selenim
>don't have a metamorphosis, but an Imago: an illusion that they
>put on when it suits them, and that they can only fully express in
>their Realm.
I think the Selenim path is something a little more subtle than
that. I think it is a path of sacrifice, of both the self and others, and
embrace of death, a path of the journey through the underworld. Not at all
the same as the LaVeyan Satanism (which, while it may look happily on
sacrifice of others, is strongly opposed to the death of sacrifice of the
practitioner). Remember the Selenim path starts by embracing your own
death, and giving up your Nephilim elements (life energies). The Osiris
myth is a myth of the selenim path to Agartha.
Not that I want them to be good guys - gods of the dead are seldom
seen as really friendly. But nor are they selfish and evil.
Cheers
Dave
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Sun Apr 30 12:21:05 1995
From: Liam Routt (repulse@zikzak.net)
Subject: Re: The Selenim: The metaphor view... (LaVey..)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Jason wrote:
> ...like LaVeyan satanism....
Just an aside, we always figured that LaVey was a charlatan of a
showmanship type. When he has appeared in our occultly Cthulhu games
he has been terrified when things are actaully summoned. Let's face
it, the guy's a goof. :)
Just an aside.
Liam R.
--
"My name is Liam. I too am an agent Liam Routt
of the Lord. I ask your aid." Darcsyde Productions
- Xombi, Issue 3 repulse@zikzak.net
Zikzak private access UNIX, Melbourne, Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Sun Apr 30 11:46:33 1995
From: jason@sable.adelphi.edu (The Unseelie)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: The Selenim: The metaphor view... (LaVey..)
In a message received on 30 Apr 1995, 04:57
nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu wrote to nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
>Jason wrote:
>> ...like LaVeyan satanism....
Liam:
>Just an aside, we always figured that LaVey was a charlatan of a
>showmanship type.
I read TSB in high school. I don't think he ever claimed to be
anything else. He started off as a piano player in a carnival. His
whole philosophy was rebottled Nietzsche and DeSade, with a heavy dash
of visualization power.
>When he has appeared in our occultly Cthulhu games he
>has been terrified when things are actaully summoned. Let's face it, the
>guy's a goof. :)
I like to think of him as a latent Discordian who has come to believe his
own schtick.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jason@sable.adelphi.edu is also known|"And leave you there
elsewhere as Faust, ThE uNsEeLiE, and| by yourself, chained to fate"
Werther Goethenkin. Support polynymy!| _I_Alone_, Live
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From erzo.berkeley.edu!owner-nephilim Tue May 2 05:31:55 1995
From: Laurent.Mynard@laforia.ibp.fr (Laurent MYNARD)
To: nephilim@erzo.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: The Selenim: The metaphor view...
> >They can never achieve Agartha (unity and self-knowledge) so they set
> >to create a Realm - a space where they can exert all the power they
> >want, and customise to their own desires. Laurent says that the Selenim
> >don't have a metamorphosis, but an Imago: an illusion that they
> >put on when it suits them, and that they can only fully express in
> >their Realm.
Selenim do not have a metamorphosis, in the meaning they don't have
permanent alteration on the body they possess. The Imago is something
different. The Imago is the shape they give to their own black moon
ka. Selenim have only one element left, and I suppose it is the
reason why they can shape it that way, while Nephilim cannot shape
their pentacles (or they -we?- ignore this possibility). And it is
possible to make a part (or even the whole) of the Imago appear (i.e
become real and alter the body in the same way the aspects of the
metamorphosis do), only for a short time. It can be a voluntary
process (requiring the spending of ka), or an unvoluntary one (in a
Realm, in a black moon Nexus, or because of Entropy).
> I think the Selenim path is something a little more subtle than
> that. I think it is a path of sacrifice, of both the self and others, and
> embrace of death, a path of the journey through the underworld. Not at all
> the same as the LaVeyan Satanism (which, while it may look happily on
> sacrifice of others, is strongly opposed to the death of sacrifice of the
> practitioner). Remember the Selenim path starts by embracing your own
> death, and giving up your Nephilim elements (life energies). The Osiris
> myth is a myth of the selenim path to Agartha.
Yes.
> Not that I want them to be good guys - gods of the dead are seldom
> seen as really friendly. But nor are they selfish and evil.
Right. Whereas I hate the notions of evil/good, I suppose that the
Selenim Vlad Dracul can be called evil. On the contrary, the Ankou in
Brittany is not evil at all. He wants to help the dead humans after
death (it seems that he knows very much about what happens to human
souls then...). Most of them have a behaviour close to Onirim (they
are both linked to the illusions of the Moon). Their behaviour may
seem often uncoherent from an human point of view.
Laurent.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Thu Jul 13 22:55:39 1995
From: Brilliant Mistake (n8448238@henson.cc.wwu.edu)
Subject: Re: Vampires
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Isaacs, Ross wrote a response to...
> > From: cs6004@wlv.ac.uk (A.R.Gay)
> > Also I have had requests for a Vampire metamorphisis,
> > I'll see if I think it can be done and post it, with both sets
> > of metamorphosis rules, for people to look at. (It will be nice
> > to try, but I am loath to actualy let the player who requested
> > it take this Metamorphosis as they are a long term Vampire
> > player and I am trying to break them of thier old (bad) habits.
> Um, has your player read the Nephilim rules?
>
> Vampires are Selenim. Selenim are Nephilim who traded their Ka
> elements for Black Moon Ka. They are now immune to Orichalka, and
> can spend Black Moon Ka points to work magic. They also create
> their own realms, similar to the subtle planes, of which they are
> lord and master. To replenish their supply of Black Moon Ka, they
> must feast on Solar Ka - that is, BLOOD. It's all in the rulesbook.
Well, actually, the rulesbook alludes to *some* of this
information in the background material. Much of the information to
which you refer is in either the Writers' Prospectus or was included
in a brief summary by Laurent of the published French material. To be
absolutely precise, Ross, there are remarkably few published rules
defining what a vampire truly is. One of the wonderful things I've
found with the game Nephilim is the ability to devise parallel
explanations for historical/legendary creatures, people and events.
Take, for example, our discussion a while back regarding shamans. By
the end of the discussion, we had forwarded the possibilities of a
shaman being a human with awakened Solar-Ka, a Nephilim in permanent
possession, a Hanged Man Nephilim, and Nephilim in temporary
possession. By extension of this free-thinking philosophy, I could
easily see more than one source explanation for the vampire myth.
True, Chaosium's vision of the TRUE vampire is, indeed, the Selenim,
but there's nothing keeping any Nephilim from going about at night,
wearing capes and drinking blood. My advice for any GM or player of
any game is, rather than waiting about for the company to publish what
you want to see in the game, and as long as you aren't planning on
publishing yourself and don't mind back-pedalling a bit when they DO
finally publish the material, don't ever let official dogma stifle
your creativity.
As long as we're on the subject of creativity, Selenim and
publishing dates projected well into the far future, has anyone here
on the list attempted to create a working-version of a Selenim for
their campaign yet? I gave it a try a while back but found my efforts
rather un-satisfactory. If anyone has actually tried to piece
together a few rules for Selenim here and there, I'd love to see what
you've come up with...even if it does eventually contradict the
official Chaosium version (whenever THAT gets published). As a matter
of fact, I'd even like to see a Vampire Metemorphosis (I'm sure that
all of us here will recognise that it isn't a REAL vampire, of
course).
Love and do what thou wilt, man,
Ian Young
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Fri Jul 14 19:40:57 1995
From: Brilliant Mistake (n8448238@henson.cc.wwu.edu)
Subject: More on Vampires
To: Nephilim (nephilim@erzo.ORG)
Hello again,
I've changed my mind. I don't really want to see a Vampire
Metamorphosis, though there is certainly no reason why someone
couldn't make one (I contradict myself? Very well: I contradict
myself; I am large; I contain multitudes). I was poring through my
books last night, thinking about players of Nephilim who might want to
actually play a vampire...whatever morbid and nihilistic reason. It
seemed to me that there would be three basic approaches:
1) Make up rules for the Selenim (or wait for them to be published)
2) Make up a Vampire metamorphosis
3) Figure out which existing metamorphoses match the general ethos
and concept of a vampire
I felt most comfortable with approach number 3.
For those GMs out there with players who simply MUST carry
over their fixation from another game into this one, I would suggest
that you have the players take a look at the Baba Yaga and Baen Sidhe
metamorphoses from The Chronicle of the Awakenings. Both of these
metamorphoses are related to the Moon, and so have an inate connection
with the night. They are both prone to cruelty and/or manipulation
and so capture the feel of the superior vampire controlling its flock.
The only thing that is really missing is the *need* to drink blood,
and there's nothing actually keeping either of these metamorphoses
from doning so (as a matter of fact, the Baba Yaga has wonderfully
long and sharp teeth for biting, and I believe, historically, they are
even prone to the consumption of human flesh).
Not to take the discussion farther than it actually merits,
but for those players who really, really dig the ambience of Vampire,
they may easily find philosophical parallels in the various
metamorphoses included within Nephilim. Tell them to take some time,
keep an open mind and look through the lists careefully. And remind
them that they are *always* welcome to be nocturnal, dress all in
black, and pout about their existential angst to their hearts content.
Enough!
Ian Absentia
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Fri Jul 14 22:08:43 1995
From: (RIsaacs@aol.com)
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Subject: Re: More on Vampires
Ian, you wacky bundle of contradictions!
I know that some people simply cannot wait for vampires to be added
the the Nephilim milieu. I know that it may seem appropriate for
there to be a Nephilim Vampire. Certainly, if you want to create one,
go right on ahead.
HOWEVER: Laurent Mynard, from France, posted a rather long and
detailed description of Selenim - Vampires. It included enough
information for GMs to be able to cobble together rules (and this is
important) that *fit the milieu*. It also included information on the
Selenim point of view, and their magic, as well as their shadowy
realms.
I find this important because Nephilim has a guiding philosophy behind
it. (I know, you're all saying 'not this debate again.') Nephilim
fill a certain niche. You may think they are the enlightened side of
the human psyche, you may think they represent humans stoned on LSD.
Whatever you think Nephilim *symbolize* is up to you; that's not
important. (But they do represent something.) To go an add angst,
black clothes and sunglasses to the game fucks that all up. (sorry
for the language.) Nephilim is about the shattering of the ego, while
Vampires are all ego. To make a Nephilim a *typical* vampire screws
up the allegory.
Selenim, however, have their own rationale, and supposedly fit into
the milieu. If you really cannot wait for Vampires to make an
appearance, and I know I'm one of them, then perhaps it would be
better to have Laurent repeat the post so that people could cobble
something together. Or go visit the archives on the WWW. (someone
plug the address ;)
Am I being rigid? Perhaps. For me, Nephilim are Nephilim and
Vampires are Selenim. But again, whatever you do with your game is up
to you. This is all my own opinion.
Ross A. Isaacs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Fri Jul 14 23:39:25 1995
From: Brilliant Mistake (n8448238@waldorf.cc.wwu.edu)
Subject: Re: More on Vampires
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
On Fri, 14 Jul 1995 RIsaacs@aol.com wrote:
> Ian, you wacky bundle of contradictions!
A point of pride with me, really...
[another plea for Laurent to re-list his intriguing discussion of Selenim
deleted here...]
> I find this important because Nephilim has a guiding philosophy behind it.
> (I know, you're all saying 'not this debate again.') Nephilim fill a
> certain niche. You may think they are the enlightened side of the human
> psyche, you may think they represent humans stoned on LSD. Whatever you
> think Nephilim *symbolize* is up to you; that's not important. (But they do
> represent something.) To go an add angst, black clothes and sunglasses to
> the game fucks that all up. (sorry for the language.) Nephilim is about the
> shattering of the ego, while Vampires are all ego. To make a Nephilim a
> *typical* vampire screws up the allegory.
Hear, hear. I heartily agree with your perceptions of the
recent popularisation of the vampire myth. However, I will posit that
Selenim are more than *just* vampires. The term 'vampire' is one of
the many terms that the more ignorant members of humanity have given
them. Sometimes they are called 'werewolves'. Sometimes they are
known as 'ogres' or 'redcaps' or 'trolls' or 'giants' or whatever.
They are the monsters that have plagued human society and imagination
throughout the millenia, and societies isolated by culture and
geography have called this one unified group of beings any number of
names. Now, confusing this is the fact that a Nephilim in Khaiba
appears as a monster as well, often fitting the vague description of
the traditional Selenim-monsters. And then there are the elemental
creatures...
So where am I going with all this? Straight to hell, I should
think. However, while I'm on the way, I'd like to suggest that a
single creature, viewed from a multitude of perspectives, may generate
a number of different myths. Likewise, a number of different
creatures viewed by an unsophisticated populace may be lumped under
one label. Selenim are certainly the one, true bunch of Solar-Ka
suckers, but they may not hold the exclusive rights to the name
'vampire', and they may not all fit neatly under that single
description. Bets are on, however, that they don't bear much
resemblance at all to the poncey vampires of WWGames. At least not in
MY perfect world...
Dig it, jazz-cats,
Ian Absentia
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Sat Jul 15 13:53:52 1995
From: (RIsaacs@aol.com)
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Subject: Re: More on Vampires
Ian, I'm liking you more and more as time goes on. That's what I love
about this whole internet gestalt. More debate:
While I agree with some of your statements, I have some different views.
First, I want to stress that according to Laurent's translation, the
Selenim have their own philosophy, justification, whatever you want to
call it, which makes them playable. By that I mean, they are not just
evil bloodsucking monsters, and thus only fit to be enemies. For
example, the Sabbat is considered evil by the Camarilla, but when you
read the Sabbat supplements, they actually present the Sabbat in a
positive light. I really liked this aspect of VtM. One side held one
belief, which demonized the other side, while it turns out that the
other side isn't that bad at all.
In Nephilim, Selenim are presented as the monsters of mythology -
vampires, werewolves, ogres, etc. But that's certainly not all there
is to it. So I hesitate to pidgeon-hole them into a box marked
'monsters.'
Second, I do not think that all Selenim are alike. Some may go by the
name 'Vampire,' while others go by 'werewolf.' I think that the
Selenim should have metamorphosis of their own. Not necessarily that
they change the physical appearance of their hosts, but that some have
powers reminiscent of vampires while others are more like werewolves.
I could see it as a function of the spells/powers each has; vampiric
Selenim might mesmerize people and construct horrific realms, while
wolfen Selenim might change shape and commune with nature spirits.
I'm just talking off the top of my head here, outlining the borders of
what I think Selenim should be. It would be akin to Clive Barker's
Nightbreed, actually.
So, Selenim should be
1) more than the origin of human monster stories.
2) not just a single type of being, but a multitude, all under the
banner of 'selenim.'
What does this all mean to the GMs sitting out there, reading this?
Not much, I supppose. Everyone is free to do what they want. I am in
total agreement, BTW, that Selenim should try to avoid the 'Moon over
Bourbon Street' mentality. (A cool saxaphone blows over the moonlit
city streets. In the glow of a streetlamp, a figure dressed
tragically in black and, oddly enough, wearing sunglasses, moves
towards the shadows. . . .)
I can never end these things wittily enough, so I'll just end abruptly
here.
Obla-di, Obla-da!
Ross
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Sun Jul 16 06:50:12 1995
From: Brilliant Mistake (n8448238@henson.cc.wwu.edu)
Subject: Those wacky Selenim
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Hey Ross,
Glad to read those good thoughts. Keep 'em coming.
> In Nephilim, Selenim are presented as the monsters of mythology - vampires,
> werewolves, ogres, etc. But that's certainly not all there is to it. So I
> hesitate to pidgeon-hole them into a box marked 'monsters.'
Indeed. I fell prey to the same mis-conceptions of my forebears
(betchya all didn't know I was a bear).
> Second, I do not think that all Selenim are alike. Some may go by the name
> 'Vampire,' while others go by 'werewolf.' I think that the Selenim should
> have metamorphosis of their own.
Durn your hide, Ross. This was precisely what I was going to
write about today. You beat me to the punch. Let's hear some ideas on
what metamorphoses would be appropriate to flesh-and-blood-eating
Nephilim. Obviously the Vampire and the Werewolf metamorphoses would be
a good place to start...
Here's another thought: do all Selenim have to drink human blood
or eat human flesh to incorporate the Solar-Ka? I guess what I'm driving
at here is the possibility of psychic syphoning of Solar-Ka, or the use
of ritual and spell to drain it, a la the Succubus/Incubus.
> So, Selenim should be
> 1) more than the origin of human monster stories.
Precisely. After all, the Nephilim are responsible for a number
of those stories as well, and they aren't depicted as monsters (well, not
all of them).
> 2) not just a single type of being, but a multitude, all under the banner of
> 'selenim.'
> What does this all mean to the GMs sitting out there, reading this? Not
> much, I supppose. Everyone is free to do what they want. I am in total
> agreement, BTW, that Selenim should try to avoid the 'Moon over Bourbon
> Street' mentality. (A cool saxaphone blows over the moonlit city streets.
> In the glow of a streetlamp, a figure dressed tragically in black and, oddly
> enough, wearing sunglasses, moves towards the shadows. . . .)
Um...gee. Does this mean I can't have my Selenim manifest in the
body of Sting?
Woo-woo!
Ian Absentia
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Sun Jul 16 06:25:00 1995
From: Brilliant Mistake (n8448238@henson.cc.wwu.edu)
Subject: Selenim metamorphoses
To: Nephilim (nephilim@erzo.ORG)
Well, here I go cvontradicting myself again.
I popped off my last letter encouraging people to propose their
own concepts of Selenim metamorphoses before I had re-read the summaries
from Laurent (kindly re-posted by Mike...thank you). Laurent discussed a
notion called the 'Imago', which is apparently a form of *extensive* and
spiritual self-visualisation (which puts this right on line with what
Mark was suggesting...way to go, fella!). So, I guess the metamorphosis
idea is a little too restrictive for what the Selenim might really be.
Now let me put forth the request that someone dig up and
translate a more thorough concept and rules for what the Imago truly is.
Or, failing that, begin to posit what they *ought* to be. I would
suppose that the Selenim choose a particularly satisfying intellectual
image into which they desire to transform, rather than the innate,
spirtual actualisation of the dominant Ka of the Nephilim.
Ah, well...
Ciao-wow-wow,
Ian Absentia
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Sun Jul 16 09:53:14 1995
From: (RIsaacs@aol.com)
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Subject: Re: Those wacky Selenim
The issue of Selenim seems to be getting everyone's heart and
imagination to racing. That's a Good Thing (tm).
I found it refreshing to re-read Laurent's information. I think
there's enough here to go on and start creating. Ian, I agree that
Imago is better than metamorphosis. I wonder if it's something that
can be changed, like shapeshifting? One day, I'm handsome with short
blonde hair, then next I'm this horrific fanged beast.
I'll tell you this much, in Immortal Asia, Selenim are the Kings of
the Ten Hells, the Buddhist Yama, and Emperor Qin Shi. While we all
call them Vampires, Werewolves, Children of the Night, they also
represent another occult concept (naturally):
They are the left-hand path to enlightenment. Sometimes to achieve
Enlightenment, you must pass through the underworld, like Gandalf in
LotR, or many other 'To-hell-and-back' myths. Selenim represent this
way of getting to Agartha, IMHO.
I don't have any witty or cute way to end my letter, so I'll just stop
here,
Ross
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Sun Jul 16 10:54:41 1995
From: kirstin chappell (kchappel@d.umn.edu)
Subject: Re: Those wacky Selenim
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995 RIsaacs@aol.com wrote:
> They are the left-hand path to enlightenment. Sometimes to achieve
> Enlightenment, you must pass through the underworld, like Gandalf in LotR, or
> many other 'To-hell-and-back' myths. Selenim represent this way of getting
> to Agartha, IMHO.
>
> I don't have any witty or cute way to end my letter, so I'll just stop here,
>
> Ross
I know that this is not a reference to The Western Path (unless you
are facing north ;) ) ... but with Set being opposed as he is to
Osiris, might not he and some other of the beings of the Egyptian
Underworld be Selinim?
[Paul takes a quick glance at his books]
Actually, thought I hate to bring the source up (ain't it interdicted
here?), the Prospectus takes this farther - the Western Path is indeed
the Selinim Path. Again, I've been lazy and haven't read Laurent's
posts yet, so I'll go back and see what he says about the Western
Path. I'm dying to play it.
Bill Ranulph
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Mon Jul 17 06:35:40 1995
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
From: jd@auvergne.culture.fr (Jerome DARMONT)
Subject: Re: Those wacky Selenim
> Here's another thought: do all Selenim have to drink human blood
>or eat human flesh to incorporate the Solar-Ka? I guess what I'm driving
>at here is the possibility of psychic syphoning of Solar-Ka, or the use
>of ritual and spell to drain it, a la the Succubus/Incubus.
Actually they don't have to drink human blood at all. They feed on human
emotions. Some may drink blood "for fun", but they don't need to.
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/_/_/_/_/_ /_/_/_/_ Jerome DARMONT
/_ /_ /_ D.R.A.C. Auvergne, Clermont-Ferrand, FRANCE
/_ /_ /_ jd@auvergne.culture.fr
/_ /_ /_ darmont@libd1.univ-bpclermont.fr
/_/_/_ /_/_/_/_ oodbprjd@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
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Tom Bombadil was a merry fellow
Bright blue was his jacket and his boots were yellow J.R.R. T.
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Sun Jul 16 17:25:44 1995
From: Brilliant Mistake (n8448238@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu)
Subject: Imago...my ever-changing moods
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995 RIsaacs@aol.com wrote:
> The issue of Selenim seems to be getting everyone's heart and imagination to
> racing. That's a Good Thing (tm).
Hugh Betchum.
> I found it refreshing to re-read Laurent's information. I think there's
> enough here to go on and start creating. Ian, I agree that Imago is better
> than metamorphosis. I wonder if it's something that can be changed, like
> shapeshifting? One day, I'm handsome with short blonde hair, then next I'm
> this horrific fanged beast.
Here's an idea that might actually tie the Imago into the new
concept of emotion-based Metamorphoses: emotion-based Imago. Have you
ever noticed that sometimes people's faces and general appearance seem
to shift dependent upon their mood? Furthermore, have you ever
noticed that your thinking process seems to work differently based
upon your emotional state? Imagine now, a creature that has learned
to alter its appearance and physical form to correspond with some
intellectual idea of perfection. This creature has not, however,
divorced itself from its emotions, and in moments of extreme passion,
the 'ideal' form alters to a form that more accurately depicts the
emotions it is currently feeling. Hence, 'shapeshifting' may be a
function of the control (or lack thereof) of an emotional hierarchy,
similar to that of the Nephilim. This is just a seminal idea, but it
might help establish Imago as a close and corresponding parallel to
Metamorphosis.
> I'll tell you this much, in Immortal Asia, Selenim are the Kings of the Ten
> Hells, the Buddhist Yama, and Emperor Qin Shi. While we all call them
> Vampires, Werewolves, Children of the Night, they also represent another
> occult concept (naturally)
I can dig this, daddy-o.
Still searching...
Ian Absentia
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Mon Jul 17 21:28:31 1995
From: Kage (100520.2025@compuserve.com)
To: Nephilim Digest
Subject: Shapeshifting & Selenim...
Yeah, the "mazracks" in the K. Kerr books cannot get rid of
all that flesh so they end up *real* big, but you can't have
everything you want they way you want it (says Oberon?). Anyway, who
needs to shapeshift into a rat... you can do a good enough job as a
human?
Hmmm... changing into a shape that matches your personality
doesn't seem so bad a thing. I mean, it could explain all the
different "types" of were-creatures... didn't Young or some other
psychologist divide the human personality into traits and types? The
personality type could explain the general shape that is changed into,
while personality traits determine specific differences between
were-creatues of the same "type." Thus, you could have the general
"werewolf" expression of personality, with - I don't know - the colour
of fur being determined by individual personality traits... don't WW
operate I kind of "grouping by generalised personality traits/types"
with their *Werewolf: The Apocolypse* material, what with the Fianna,
Glass Dancers, etc...?
Taking on the "personality" of the animal that you change into
also, IMHO, isn't such a bad thing. I mean, if you just happen to be
able to change into a fish or something, it doesn't mean anything.
However, if the animal personality comes out it becomes more involving
as an experience for the character in question.
Also, from what I've read from the Digest and the resource
material, Selenim tend to differentiate themselves into seperate types
(werewolves, vampires, ghouls, etc.) Maybe this is an expression of
shape-shifted personality, etc. Anyway, I'm not a psychologist so
feel free to shoot holes in my ideas... keeps me on my toes :)
Oh yeah, who is to say that that Nephilim don't have
fragmented personalites? I wonder if Freud or Young would have any
anything to say about Nephilim?
[Emotion-based Imago...]
Sounds like the Brian Lumley thing to me... with "metamorphic
flesh" changing based upon the control that a creature (vampire in the
books' case) has over his personality at the time. The more angry
they get, the more the "leech" within begins to express it's true
nature, and thus the creature will change, it's flesh altering.
Hmm... growing in stature, gaining claws, armour, wings, halitosis,
whatever - sounds a bit like automatic-shapeshifting resulting from
extreme stress (if you're a fan of the late R. Zelazy, of course), but
it works.
Yeah, so I read a lot.. bet you can't tell :)
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Tue Jul 18 09:57:07 1995
From: John Lambert (vidar@deakin.edu.au)
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting & Selenim...
On 17 Jul 1995, Kage wrote:
> Yeah, the "mazracks" in the K. Kerr books cannot get rid of all that
> flesh so they end up *real* big, but you can't have everything you want
Yeah, but my point was that shapeshifting isn't as good as it
sounds. Yes you can change your shape, but unless you change into
something approximately your size it's going to be VERY obvious. Anybody
you knows anything about mazraks would be able to recognize one that's
shapeshifted.
> Hmmm... changing into a shape that matches your personality
> doesn't seem so bad a thing. I mean, it could explain all the
> different "types" of were-creatures... didn't Young or some other
> psychologist divide the human
Never said it was, the original poster left out some details so I
filled them in. And I believe you're refering to Yung.
> of fur being determined by individual personality traits... don't WW
> operate I kind of "grouping by generalised personality traits/types"
> with their *Werewolf: The Apocolypse* material, what with the
> Fianna, Glass Dancers, etc...?
Not really, the Werewolf tribes mostly arose due to geographical
differences, atleast originally. So the black furies are in Greece, the
silver fangs in Russia, etc. Ofcourse this doesn't explain the Glass
Walkers or the Red Talons. The original Glass Walkers were from
different tribes and they were given the task to ward over the humans.
> Taking on the "personality" of the animal that you change into
> also, IMHO, isn't such a bad thing. I mean, if you just happen to
> be able to change into a fish or something, it doesn't mean
> anything. However, if the animal personality comes out it becomes
> more involving as an experience for the character in question.
True, it isn't such a bad thing - however if you keep to your
shifted form eventually your consciousness may be subsumed into that of
the animals (ie, you would eventually forget that you were a mazrak).
Besides I'd also say that the personality of the animal would
'carry-over' into the sorcerors human form, especially after a prolonged
period as the animal.
John.
vidar@deakin.edu.au
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Wed Jul 19 04:47:37 1995
From: Brilliant Mistake (n8448238@henson.cc.wwu.edu)
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting & Selenim...
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, John Lambert wrote:
> On 17 Jul 1995, Kage wrote:
> Hmmm... changing into a shape that matches your personality
> doesn't seem so bad a thing. I mean, it could explain all the
> different "types" of were-creatures... didn't Young or some other
> psychologist divide the human Never said it was, the original poster
> left out some details so I filled them in. And I believe you're
> refering to Yung.
Whoa, whoa there... Now, I find this all very flattering, but
the person to whom you are both referring is Dr. Carl Gustav *Jung*. And
yes, Jung did identify archetypes that correlate to the various facets of
our personalities. So...you are suggesting that Selenim manifest their
personality archetypes under emotional duress? Interesting...
So, tell me about...your mother...
Ian Young
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Wed Jul 19 13:54:55 1995
From: John Lambert (vidar@deakin.edu.au)
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting & Selenim...
On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Brilliant Mistake wrote:
> Whoa, whoa there... Now, I find this all very flattering, but
> the person to whom you are both referring is Dr. Carl Gustav *Jung*. And
Knew something about my spelling was incorrect! Yeah I did mean
Jung.
John.
vidar@deakin.edu.au