From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Wed Oct 4 06:45:00 1995
From: (Adam_Crossingham@aldgen.ccmail.compuserve.com)
To: (nephilim@erzo.ORG)
Subject: Can Nephilim Time Travel?
Nephilim can time travel. This thought struck me during the
recent "revelations" that Stephen Hawking believes that time
travel is possible. Further thought suggested, that as beings of
energy Nephilim should not be restrained by a mortal body. The
rule book clearly states that Agarthans can time travel, by
travelling via the Subtle Planes. Time on the Subtle Planes is a
representation of the Past similar to a painting and cannot be
changed, but secrets can be learnt. If Agarthans can travel
through time, then there is the possibility that Nephilim can
also travel. Agarthans should not just gain the ability to travel
the Subtle Planes just by thinking about it, Plane-travel should
be an ability picked up by higher level Nephilim on their way to
achieving Agartha. The rules mention portals as one way to access
the Subtle Planes, but most of these are very well guarded by
secret societies, and would be rather suicidal for a Nephilim to
try and use. Another way to access the Planes might be by the use
of magical spells. The spells that allow travel on the Planes are
going to be of a very high level and extremely rare. But they
will exist.
The ability to time travel would open the Nephilim game out. A
secret that cannot be learnt by any other means: whether through
experience, relics, books or spells, etc., can be learnt by going
back and observing it. This will not be easy. The spell has to
found. This is an adventure in itself. Then there is the
experimentation, and finding the Plane with the knowledge that
the Nephilim require. The whole event may work in a similar
fashion to a Gloranthan heroquest. The general outline of the
past may fixed on the Plane, but are the subtle details fixed?
Then of course the Nephilim having found the information, have to
use it. Nephilim with long-lost information are sure to be a
target for other Nephilim and Secret Societies, and therefore
more adventures...
My grasp of physics is not too good, but I think one can argue
that as energy beings Nephilim might be able to perform similar
stunts such as hydrogen atoms "tunnelling" or perhaps even turn
themselves into negative energy or antimatter (call it what you
will) and become subject to the reverse laws of physics. Humble
and abject apologies to any physicists I have just offended.
Magic would be the obvious catalyst to allow this happen. The
effects might be to release the Nephilim from the need of a
simulacra for a temporary period, and allow the unburdened
consciousness roam the Planes for a finite period. Or the
Nephilim might incarnate temporarily in the body of an individual
on the Plane. This would be an interesting option, as the
information gleaned would be highly subjective from one point of
view. The host may also have strong opinions about being
possessed.
I think time travel would be an interesting addition to the
capabilities of a Nephilim and would liven up a game where the
player Nephilim have run into a dead-end of clues and secrets.
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Wed Oct 4 18:13:42 1995
From: (Chaosium@aol.com)
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Subject: Time Travel, Quote
Re time travel:
Actually, someone is working on an adventure right now in which time travel
figures as a central element. The Nephilim must jump through some major hoops
to get back to a specific place and time. They DO NOT gain a time travel
spell or any such frequent access method, but are able to, this one time,
return to ancient Greece.
Swell Quote:
I came across this quote while I was reading a recent translation of the yoga
sutras. It says much of my view of the Nephilim:
"... thus, who a person believes him or herself to be is relative to the
position Consciousness occupies: if the Center of Consciousness is centered
in the mind, Consciousness believes itself to be the thoughts and emotions it
has become one with; and if the Center of Consciousness is postitioned within
Itself, It sees the error of its past beliefs, and discovers Its true
identity."
--- Pantajali Yoga Sutras, translated by Swami Savitripriya,
in _Psychology of Mystical Awakening_
This brings in the idea of metamorphoses as representing the transformation
of identity which accompanies an awakening. Accordingly, the viewpoint of the
PC is so drastically skewed into the spirit and disassociated with the mind
and physical self (the Simulacrum) in order to simulate this change of
perspective and identity.
My other favorite recent quote:
We dance around the ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
--Robert Frost
Sam Shirley
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Fri Oct 6 02:00:47 1995
From: wcoburn@mamacass.ucsd.edu (Wayne Coburn)
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Subject: Re: Can Nephilim Time Travel?
Hello,
I thought that the readers of this list might want to hear what physics
(and in particular, general relativity) says about time travel. It is
actually the point of a debate between Kip Thorne at Cal Tech and Stephen
Hawking in Cambridge that has been going on for several years now.
The equations of GR are hideously complex and so only a few solutions have
ever been found, several of which do allow for time travel. In 1973 Tipler
(I think) showed that a going around a rotating cylinder that is infinite
in extent will get you back to the start before you left. Recently Gott
has developed a time machine with cosmic strings (again infinite in extent)
and Morris-Thorne have a time machine using stable wormholes. The point
I am trying to make is that no matter what you have learned, the current
state of physics allows for time travel (although there is a question
about if a theory of quantum gravity will allow for it, which is the center
of the Hawking - Thorne debate).
Another interesting point of time travel is the matricide paradox; what
happens if you go back in time and kill your parents before you were born?
Physicists don't like that question because it brings in the question of
free will, which is rather difficult to model. The equivalent question is,
'can a billiard ball roll into a time machine, travel back in time, and
knock itself such that it doesn't enter the time machine?' The exact
answer to this is unknown (ie there is no mathematical proof either way)
but numerical simulations suggest that the answer is no.
Morris and Thorne found an infinite number of numerical solutions to the
problem where the billiard ball went back in time and knocked itself into
the time machine but none that were 'forbidden.' This is a blow for physics
because we like to think that if we know the initial conditions to a
classical system we can predict all of the future motion. Given the existance
of a time machine that can no longer be done. On the other hand all of our
mothers can breath a sigh of relief.
If anyone wants some more information feel free to write me. If you look
for the topic in a journal, search for 'Closed Timelike Curves.' That is
what physicists are calling it so that the tabloids dont figure it out.
Wayne Coburn
wcoburn@ucsd.edu
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From owner-nephilim@erzo.ORG Mon Oct 9 10:23:39 1995
From: (yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: Can Nephilim Time Travel?
To: nephilim@erzo.ORG
Wayne Coburn says :
--------- Heavy Physics Warning ------------------
:I am trying to make is that no matter what you have learned, the current
:state of physics allows for time travel ..
But ONLY if you are also prepared to allow for infinitely
long hyperdense spinning cylinders, or infinitely long superstrings,
niether of which may be possible in our universe. If they are not
possible, then neither is time travel.
Albert Einstein was asked once whether he though that it might be
possible to travel back in time. He answered that if it was, there
would be nothing there, all the matter in the universe has already
moved past that point in time and is 'here'. So far as he was concerned
matter travels through time in the same way that it travells through
space. A moving object does not exist at all points along its trajectory
through time any more than it exists at all points through its
trajectory through space.
--------- End of Heavy Physics -------------------
Not that this means anything much from a Nephilim point of view.
Personally, I am a big fan of the alternate universes method of
dealing with time travel. In this case, by traveling back in time
and changing something, you cause an alternate future to be created.
If you then travel back to your own starting point, you will find
that nothing has changed.
At the end of the day, if it makes for a good scenario then why not?
This is fantasy, after all.
Simon Hibbs
yfcw29@castle.ed.ac.uk
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